Read This Part Please

RodfatherRodfather Member Posts: 32
edited April 3 in Films and Activators
I am getting closer to a good hit, as you say. However, I need some help in reading the film after the dip. Here are a few specifics: water temp. - 85 degrees, soak time - 60 sec., dwell after application of the activator - +/- 5 sec. the activator is K2 Super Brew., time to rinse - 5 minutes. The Gun: Iwata LPH400 1.3, fan - 2 turns out, fluid 1.5 turns out, 10 PSI



Post edited by Rodfather on
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Comments

  • OverCoatsOverCoats Member Posts: 391 ✭✭✭
    @Rodfather your gun is spitting activator or water and making holes in the film. Check your setup on the gun
  • studebakerstudebaker Member, Business Ninja Posts: 3,958 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Rodfather I can see by the description of your process that you have thoroughly researched the process! Kudos for making the extra effort.

    Ok, here's my considered opinion (for what's that worth)... First off, when dipping speed shapes for display to your customer, use a tape handle on the back side. Thumbprints on the top are hard to airbrush out. The jagged holes seem to indicate a lack of activator, I think you had the right amount of activator, but 5 seconds dwell time isn't enough time for the ink and clear fixative to fully melt. But even more importantly, all those trapped air pinholes are in locations that show an improper dipping angle. All those things have combined to make this a problem.
  • RodfatherRodfather Member Posts: 32
    Thanks to both OverCoats and Studebaker for your opinions. To OverCoats: The holes appear only after the rinse and not on the film in the water or on the part before the rinse. To Studebaker: I have tried to copy others that I have seen dip speed shapes. Can you suggest a proper dipping angle? I realize that the holes on the edge are trapped air and the jagged holes are probably an activator problem. I am also going to increase the PSI for better atomization. I will try, 1-bar, and see what happens. I do dip with a tape handle. However, the bare spot on the speed shape occurred during the rinse. I was careless not thinking that the film was soft and held the speed shape by the small end. Therefore, the print was rubbed off. I have tried 20 seconds dwell time and determined that was too long because the ink started to dissolve in the water and was thin on the part showing more base paint and allowing extreme stretch after the dip. I think I will try 10 seconds and hope for a better outcome. Thanks for Studebaker's suggestions and OverCoats' observation and suggestion of possible solutions.
  • studebakerstudebaker Member, Business Ninja Posts: 3,958 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The fading of a print is caused by overhydrated soft PVA film stretching too much. My point is that if you need to dwell 20 seconds to give the ink time to melt, them activate earlier in the process, like at 50 seconds as opposed to 60 seconds. The ink melting and the centipois (softness) of the film have to meet at the same time as the object passing through the water surface/melted ink interface. That's why so many experts in this forum advocate writing down ALL the parameter of every dip so that you aren't changing more than one step at a time during your initial learning phase. I am advocating videoing every dip so we can see where the problem(s) may be manifesting.
  • RodfatherRodfather Member Posts: 32
    Thanks, Studebaker. I was unaware of the centipoise. How much of a dip window does a person have with the ink melting and centipoise. Would you activate as soon as the film flattens out and then dwell 20 sec.? Would you still wait 5 min. to rinse after dipping? Does the water temp. figure into this? I can see that all are good points. Especially the log.
    I have an old iPhone 6s hand-me-down from my Grandson that I would use for the video. Not sure how that going to work. I like the logbook idea, not so high tech. I'll work on the video idea. A video camera may be cheaper than speed shapes, paint, and film. I'll be back!
  • studebakerstudebaker Member, Business Ninja Posts: 3,958 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The formulation of the PVA film is generally the same across all 30-micron films. There are about 6 different manufacturers, and they all understand the process and formulate to the end user.

    The warm water (32C) is to speed up the hydration process of the PVA film. It is not as crucial as consistency. At "x" Centipoise (usually about 50,000 - 60,000) the film is at just the right plasticity for the surface tension of the water to force the melted ink against the substrate without wrinkling, and to stretch just the right amount. It's a balancing act that can be "read" with enough experience.

    @WileECoyote and @Tsunami started a thread to share their log sheet style with forum members here at this link to discussion thread.
  • RodfatherRodfather Member Posts: 32
    edited April 4
    Thanks, Studebaker. My current water temp is about to 86 degrees. I'll increase it to (32C) and see what happens. This cP thing is interesting and complicated. I like it! I tried to use this discussion link to WileCoyote & Tsunami log sheet style thread. Forum says that I don't have permission to view that link. How do I get permission?
  • studebakerstudebaker Member, Business Ninja Posts: 3,958 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Rodfather Yeah, sorry guy that was a Business Ninja discussion thread..... But here is the PDF Hydrographic Log file originally posted by WilECoyote
  • RodfatherRodfather Member Posts: 32
    Thanks, Studebaker. I looked at that. It is almost exactly what I am doing only better organized. I am going to try to attach a video and one related still photo for your review. This is the last speed shape of the day and had one small irregular hole. Specs are as follows: temp - 72 degrees, humidity - 80%, water temp. - 86 degrees, shop is enclosed but not temp controlled, the gun is Iwata LPH 400 1.3, fan - 2 turns out, Fluid 1.5 turns out, air - 12 Psi, soak time 50 sec, dwell time - 20 sec, time to rinse - 5 min., Activator - K2 Super Brew, Base Paint - OHW, Film - Brown Burl Wood by OHW, size of the film - 9" x 12", number of passes - 2 plus tic/tac/toe. Please tell me what you think. I feel that we are getting close. I tried to download a video to this forum but it didn't work. It appears that the video needs to go through YouTube first to get a URL or I just don't know what I am doing. In any case, I am not ready for that right now. This is a photo of the last dip today. The surface appeared dry as in small scales. Does this mean more hydrating or more dwell?
  • studebakerstudebaker Member, Business Ninja Posts: 3,958 ✭✭✭✭✭
    When you say the surface appeared dry with scales... Does that mean the film on the water after activator was applied that it looked like that? Some film patterns do. Some glass out.... Bummer that everything isn't exactly the same.... That's where the artisanship of this whole process comes in.

    Also, record ambient humidity on your logs also, it's a relevant factor.
  • RodfatherRodfather Member Posts: 32
    @studebaker, thanks again for your help with this. I don't intend to be a pest. I am sorry I didn't make myself clear. As stated above, the ambient temperature in the shop at the time of the dip was 72 degrees with a humidity of 80%. The film on the water appeared to glass out after the activator was applied. The very small scales that I am referring to are on the part after the dip, rinse, and dry. It looks like the majority of the film has completely liquified and some of the ink has not. Look closely at the light brown portion in the photo. I think that you can see it there. Do you think that this is normal? If these very small hairline cracks are not normal, Is it a hydration issue, activator issue, or no issue at all and will disappear after the clear is applied?
  • studebakerstudebaker Member, Business Ninja Posts: 3,958 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would love to tell you all sorts of things wrong with the dip in your picture... But I can't see any problems at the resolution you posted the image at. As far as I can tell, it's a pretty good hit. Add it to the good pile that gets clear coated for display in your showroom... :-)

  • RodfatherRodfather Member Posts: 32
    @studebaker, Thank you, I will do that. I will also try to improve the resolution. Thank's for your quick replies and your patience.
  • RodfatherRodfather Member Posts: 32
    @studebaker, video link trial...
    I believe this may work. Tell me what you think. If this works, this is the video to accompany the still photo above. The specifications for this video are above the still photo. Please tell me what you think of the process.
  • studebakerstudebaker Member, Business Ninja Posts: 3,958 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Rodfather When you uploaded it to YouTube, it was set to "Private"... It needs to be set to a publicly viewable video.
  • RodfatherRodfather Member Posts: 32
    @studebaker, O.K., Try this. I think it will work. I am learning so many things and hydrographic printing is only one. Thanks for the reply. Please let me know how I can improve my technique.
  • studebakerstudebaker Member, Business Ninja Posts: 3,958 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ok.... So. How did the dip that you videoed turn out? Also, it took you 10 seconds to set the timer for twenty seconds... Use your judgment to determine the dwell time.
  • RodfatherRodfather Member Posts: 32
    @studebaker, good point. I have two more timmers coming today. This will give me three timers total (1 - soak, 1 - dwell, and 1 - time to rinse). I think that the extra timmers will help to improve my efficiency. As to your question about the part dipped and how it turned out. That photo is the one above labeled, video #3., Post #16, April 4. Therefore, this video is video #3.
  • studebakerstudebaker Member, Business Ninja Posts: 3,958 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I love your "Stand" for the tank... A matching set. :-)
  • RodfatherRodfather Member Posts: 32
    @studebaker, Minimalistic to say the least. I would hate to think that I had thousands invested in equipment and go through this learning curve. It is like learning to drive in an old car!! Once you get it then you can drive anything.
  • RodfatherRodfather Member Posts: 32
    @studebaker, I changed my profile picture to honor you, and thank you for all of the help. The picture is of my 1959 Studebaker Silver Hawk. Thanks for everything, Studebaker. I'll be back.
  • studebakerstudebaker Member, Business Ninja Posts: 3,958 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6
    Thank you for the honor!
    Post edited by studebaker on
  • RodfatherRodfather Member Posts: 32
    @studebaker, You are welcome. Thanks for the email address.
  • K2ConceptsK2Concepts Administrator Posts: 14,195 El Jefe
    I got dizzy just reading this...lol...
  • RodfatherRodfather Member Posts: 32
    @K2Concepts, dizzy? I think that your dizzyness is too many Haters.
  • RodfatherRodfather Member Posts: 32
    @studebaker, what is the minimum size film, in inches, for dipping a typical speed shape? I'll explain the reason for the question later.
  • studebakerstudebaker Member, Business Ninja Posts: 3,958 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Rodfather The answer is, it depends... IF you are taping all four sides it needs to be 60% larger than if you were dipping a film pattern without tape on the edges.

    The reason is that with tape edges you are stretching the film more from a stationary faux edge than the film without tape which is just drawn in across the top of the water towards the substrate. On quality high production rate jigs there is a "cutting wire" that will cut the film close to the object being dipped so that the film can be drawn closer and not stretched.

    So, the answer is.... Without tape edges 12x12 is good and with tape edges then 16x16 should be a reasonable size. Now, why do you ask?
  • RodfatherRodfather Member Posts: 32
    @studebaker, the reason that I asked is. I am still trying to get my technique, activator application, and film application improved. I am dipping OHW painted speed shapes. I have noticed in the videos that I have seen, (Brian - LC, Katy - Kansas, Jim - K2 [Mud Jugs]) all seem to use a film size that is considerably larger than the part being dipped. My assumption is that this gives them several advantages. They can dip more to the middle of the film where the application of the activator is more consistent. Dipping in a larger area would give them more area to choose from. Allowing them to work around flaws in the film, air bubbles, bad spots in general. I have noticed that my dipped speed shapes seldom have flaws in the middle. I am cutting my film to 9" X 11". This gets me two 9" cuts out of a 50cm wide piece and saves some money. However, it does not allow much room to choose from and the activator has to be exact everywhere. After dipping, I have noticed that when I clean the speed shapes to be repainted for more dipping most of my problems appear to be at the beginning, at the end, and on the outside edges, very seldom in the middle of the part. This leads me to believe that a larger film might be better for me. Also, when I clean the speed shapes I can wipe off most of the print with 99% alcohol and save most of the OHW paint underneath saving more time and money (I still scuff repaint). However, some of the print is left behind and appears to be covered with a clear film. I believe this is PVA that is not softened enough, during the soak, to be removed during the wash or the part was not thoroughly washed. So, there you go. What do you think? Remember, you asked what time it was and I told you how to take a watch apart. Thanks for your interest and help.
  • studebakerstudebaker Member, Business Ninja Posts: 3,958 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Your underlying intuition about the size of the cut film was correct. Having a better target selection is part of the consideration but planning for that takes place mostly on the cutting table. You will learn over time where to be conservative and where to allow extra room for activator, film size, tank size, etcetera. For instance, is it worth it to spend so much time cleaning and repainting a speed shape that costs $1?
  • RodfatherRodfather Member Posts: 32
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