Water heater

Hi there..I have a 8x4x4 tank waiting for parts to replace thermostat just wondering if anyone has a idea on what I could use in mean time to keep water at temp..tia

Comments

  • studebakerstudebaker Member, Business Ninja Posts: 4,049 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Daniel85650 Had a unique solution to heating the water... :-) See if you can spot it in his setup picture.

    https://k2forums.com/discussion/14119/camaro-strut-tower-brace-2-sided#latest
  • kagekage Member Posts: 18
    I was thinking those midohio 3 of them i try...im hoping got a job to finish before parts get here...
  • SpinnerSpinner Member Posts: 437 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2020
    I put a hot water spigot over my tank. Just thks week,I emptied and cleaned the tank then filled it with the hot water tap. Figured my hot water heater was cheaper than running the tank heater to get the water to temp.

    On really cold days after I havn't run the tank for a while, I will top it off with the hot tap to get things moving along.
  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Member, Moderator, Business Ninja Posts: 10,489 El Moderator
    Spinner said:

    I put a hot water spigot over my tank. Just thks week,I emptied and cleaned the tank then filled it with the hot water tap. Figured my hot water heater was cheaper than running the tank heater to get the water to temp.

    On really cold days after I havn't run the tank for a while, I will top it off with the hot tap to get things moving along.

    Weellllllll...... BTU’s are BTU’s. If you’re heating the water with an electric element, it’s going to take the same energy to raise it to a given temperature, no matter which method you use. I imagine the water heater being insulated would help some, but ultimately you’re changing the water temperature the same amount using electricity from the same source. The only way you could save $ is by going to a 480v element (higher voltage = less amperage for the same wattage element) or increasing the surface area of the energy transfer with a low watt density element. Or using solar power...

    Someone smarter than me please make sure I’m correct there... physics was never my strongest subject.
  • SpinnerSpinner Member Posts: 437 ✭✭✭
    All that went over my head.😝
    But, to warm my tank from cold, say 60 degrees, takes hours and hours...like, 6 or 7. I have a 110 tank with one heating element.

    To fill it from the water heater takes 2 "dumps" of hot water.  Maybe one hour total. Not even two dumps because the water is too hot, so I will top it off with cold.
    Whether or not the cost is the same or different, I don't know. But I'm up and running faster with the hot spigot.

    And this is very rare that I need to do it...if the tank is very cold and I need to use it that day, or on a refill and I need to use it.
  • SpinnerSpinner Member Posts: 437 ✭✭✭
    What numbers can I find on my water heater versus the numbers on the tank system to run the math?
  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Member, Moderator, Business Ninja Posts: 10,489 El Moderator
    You’d need to know The wattage and amperage of the elements used.

    Most tanks are 220v, as well as most water heaters. But, If your tank heater is 110v, and your water heater is 220v, then yep. You’ll theoretically save since you are doubling the voltage, decreasing the amperage, and you electric is billed by the amp hour. Good move!
  • WileECoyoteWileECoyote Member, Moderator, Business Ninja Posts: 7,897 El Moderator
    @MidOhioHydrographics It still takes a certain amount of amperage to heat the water. If you are running 480v it makes no difference, the electricity triangle works proportionally. The only reason businesses run 480v is because you can save money on the wire (smaller gauge due to less current draw), smaller conduit runs (due to smaller wire), smaller breakers, and less dangerous than running high amperage 120v circuits everywhere. You are correct about the water heater though, there will be some gains due to efficiency and insulation, and you are also correct that BTU's are BTU's. The same number for the same amount of water, and surface area of the element plays a large part.

    Someone with even more knowledge may be able to explain in even finer detail, but for the level most of us need to get too... it costs the same no matter what.

    The reason @spinner can heat faster with the water heater is he has 2-5 gallon dumps at 120° instantly, the 120v element gives him the same heated water but it takes significantly longer to get there. In addition, while he is heating for 6 hours, he is also losing heat for 6 hours (so that is costing him more there). If loss wasn't a problem, it would cost the same, but time would still be the issue.
  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Member, Moderator, Business Ninja Posts: 10,489 El Moderator
    What am I missing.... Billing is based off amperage used?
    Higher voltage means less amperage. So if you run a 5000W element at 110v vs 220v vs 460v, you are using less amperage

    https://www.rapidtables.com/calc/electric/Watt_to_Amp_Calculator.html

    All 5000w
    110v = 45.5A
    220v = 22.7A
    460v = 10.9A

    There are some difference changing to 3 phase also.

    But, less amperage means less $ on the electric bill? Or am I being too simplistic. The benefits of smaller breakers and wire size also is huge. But you can expect to pay a few thousand for a 460v to 220v transformer large enough to power the rest of the shop. All my new shop is 460v. Very low amp usage compared to my other shop.
  • WileECoyoteWileECoyote Member, Moderator, Business Ninja Posts: 7,897 El Moderator
    @MidOhioHydrographics You are forgetting phasing. Keep in mind, the biggest payoff is in motors, not just impedance loads, and most of the motors will be running with a VFD which assists in the savings. Single phase brings 30a over 1 phase. running 220v is essentially 2 phases and knocks it down to 15a over each leg still totaling 30a so your meter spins the same. 3 phase 480 gets a little different because each leg is 277 not 120, so that is why the amp draw looks like it drops off, but essentially you are still using the same Kv just in a different way. Remember that Volts, Amps and Ohms are all proportional, you can't lower one without raising another.

    In your example the difference between 120 and 220 is .1a, the savings at 480 is 1.9a... so something isn't directly proportional. It's the voltage, that is why you need a different transformer to run 480.

    Most industries use 480 because it saves on the things that I mentioned, it is a bit safer, and you have less loss when going over long distances inside the shop. The power used though when calculated out to be the same voltage is essentially the same.
  • WileECoyoteWileECoyote Member, Moderator, Business Ninja Posts: 7,897 El Moderator
    Again, some people that work with power and understand this a bit better may be able to find some holes in my simplistic explanation, but for everything I have needed to do, this is mostly correct.
  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Member, Moderator, Business Ninja Posts: 10,489 El Moderator
    And billing is in KWh... for some reason I thought it was amp hours. So watts are the same, billing would be the same.
Sign In or Register to comment.