Dozer's Decent Into Madness

I'm starting this new discussion thread so as discuss my specific issues, which have become many. Not really but we'll see.
Ok, the main thing is that I have repeatedly read and been told that I need to start out with a professional spray gun as the atomize the activator in a complete manner. Well, I am certain I can get the money, so what suggestions do you have for a pro gun?
@WileECoyote @spinner @notsofast @looch @studebaker
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Comments

  • DozerCorbinDozerCorbin Member Posts: 132
    Ok so I solved a mjor problem this past Friday by draining about a quart of water from my compressor tank. Went to secure an inline, three stage, filter set up for my compressor. Couldn't walk it out the doors of the store without paying for!! Getting rusty on the old "five finger discount" thing. Actually they didn't have one in stock and the price, well, five finger discount it would had to have been.
    So I bought a moisture, oil, dirt/particulate filter for now, that attaches to the gun just below my pressure gauge. That actually help a great deal. So, I did some videos, I will have to try and upload them in a few.
    I took 6 speed curves that I had already used, scuffed them, cleaned them with 70/30 IPA/Water, them painted them OHW white.
    I did a dip with red flame film from OHW. In 80 degrees water temp. The film didn't seem to react well with the water. Thought it might be the water temp. It had a bunch of "ruffles" in it. Which I just now thought about the film needing to expand. I had all four sides taped so maybe that is why it bunched up in ruffles.
    I'm on my CPU, I'm going to switch to my phone so I can upload the vids and pics.
  • SpinnerSpinner Member Posts: 380 ✭✭✭
    90 degree water is what you need as that is what is recommended by manufactures and what most of us use for most films. So that is an easy variable to change and is the cause of the symptoms you described.
    Also, flame film is notorious for being a big PITA.
    Start with a black and clear film  for testing as they are super simple and the most forgiving.

    A YouTube video is easy enough to load from the phone and provide a link.
  • DozerCorbinDozerCorbin Member Posts: 132
    I have tried uploading vids off phone, it's not giving me an option to do that so here are some pics.
    First dip. The film had a lot of ruffles in it. And there are some fading also.

    Second dip. Again with the ruffle, in the same area as the first dip. And see the washboard look on the lady side near the tab?
    Third dip, came out PERFECT! It had an immediate reaction when put in the water. Set up nice, glassed over PROPER!

    Fourth dip, green flame, the ruffles again and fading areas.


    NOW THIS, I was told I was under activating, so I did a cross hatch pattern activator spray.
    Yeah it took the film off, the paint off, down to the first film.
    Now I'm sure I OVER activated. Lol
  • DozerCorbinDozerCorbin Member Posts: 132
    Spinner said:
    90 degree water is what you need as that is what is recommended by manufactures and what most of us use for most films. So that is an easy variable to change and is the cause of the symptoms you described.
    Also, flame film is notorious for being a big PITA.
    Start with a black and clear film  for testing as they are super simple and the most forgiving.

    A YouTube video is easy enough to load from the phone and provide a link.
    I have the water usually at 82°, as Brian from Liquid Concepts' tutorial videos is always dipping his films at. 
    Ok, 90°. What about a recommendation for a spray guns?
    And I tried uploading the video, no go. I will see about the YouTube route.
    Thank you. 
  • DozerCorbinDozerCorbin Member Posts: 132
    Is it possible that by my taping all four edges of the red and the green flame films that the film didn't have room to expand??
  • DozerCorbinDozerCorbin Member Posts: 132
    Jason from OHW had me what activator I use. I use K2 Superbrew. Which I have been advised works best on just about all films. Jason felt that the Superbrew could be too strong for the films I'm using from OHW. So am I looking at another variable to figure out? Do I need multiple activators for different films??
  • studebakerstudebaker Member, Business Ninja Posts: 3,740 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I really hate to not support my fellow hydrographic professionals in all their experienced advice, but the manufacturer(s) of the film do not recommend 90F water specifically. The reason for 90F water is so that the film will hydrate faster so the folks running production don't have to wait so long before they can decorate their furniture. Brian at Liquid Concepts truly knows his stuff. His recommendation of 82F is great for his shop and about anybody that is NOT dipping 150-400 pieces a day. Time is money...

    But you will have to determine what temperature you want your water to be, and STICK WITH IT all the time. Because that is another variable in a long list of variables that you don't need to worry about when you/us are diagnosing problems. But you will still need to understand what the cP (centipoise) of the film needs to be when the object is dipped. That is the only way to figure out what the hydration time should be at the water temperature you have chosen. No one has developed a chart (yet) to help you figure this out. The best starting point that everybody keeps expounding is 60 seconds at 90F and you can extrapolate from there. As an aside, I think Brians 82F will require 80 seconds before activation for proper film hydration.

    Yes, taping all four sides on SMALL pieces will cause excessive wrinkling. People are naturally conservative and automatically cut just enough film to cover the job. But one of the considerations in sizing the film is how much stretch will occur with the tape holding back the edges of the film. If you feel the film needs tape to keep the edges from excessively curling, then add 20-30% more film to your anticipated cut size to minimize excessive pattern stretch and the chances that the film will wrinkle up onto itself while hydrating. Film is one of the lowest cost items in the whole hydrographic process (except water) so it's ok to splurge a little bit. :-)
  • ForsiForsi Member Posts: 377 ✭✭✭

    I really hate to not support my fellow hydrographic professionals in all their experienced advice, but the manufacturer(s) of the film do not recommend 90F water specifically. The reason for 90F water is so that the film will hydrate faster so the folks running production don't have to wait so long before they can decorate their furniture. Brian at Liquid Concepts truly knows his stuff. His recommendation of 82F is great for his shop and about anybody that is NOT dipping 150-400 pieces a day. Time is money...

    But you will have to determine what temperature you want your water to be, and STICK WITH IT all the time. Because that is another variable in a long list of variables that you don't need to worry about when you/us are diagnosing problems. But you will still need to understand what the cP (centipoise) of the film needs to be when the object is dipped. That is the only way to figure out what the hydration time should be at the water temperature you have chosen. No one has developed a chart (yet) to help you figure this out. The best starting point that everybody keeps expounding is 60 seconds at 90F and you can extrapolate from there. As an aside, I think Brians 82F will require 80 seconds before activation for proper film hydration.

    Yes, taping all four sides on SMALL pieces will cause excessive wrinkling. People are naturally conservative and automatically cut just enough film to cover the job. But one of the considerations in sizing the film is how much stretch will occur with the tape holding back the edges of the film. If you feel the film needs tape to keep the edges from excessively curling, then add 20-30% more film to your anticipated cut size to minimize excessive pattern stretch and the chances that the film will wrinkle up onto itself while hydrating. Film is one of the lowest cost items in the whole hydrographic process (except water) so it's ok to splurge a little bit. :-)

    Everything @studebaker says is correct, as it usually is. With regards to flame/smoke patterns, they are indeed notoriously a pain. I pulled my notes/data sheets from various flame/smoke patterns from when I had my shop open and for taping I went with taping two sides. For most of the smoke patterns my water temp was 90 degrees and depending on the film it was a 60-80 second dwell time before activating - read the film and activate when it is ready. For the smoke and flames I cut the film larger than the additional size I would normally cut for other patterns to avoid it "bunching" and then creasing as you have experienced in your posted photos.

    Hopefully something in here will help you out; those were my settings and I dipped a lot of smoke pattern projects...
  • SpinnerSpinner Member Posts: 380 ✭✭✭
    edited July 12
    @studebaker... LOL
    I hedged my advice on 90 degrees because of the most common perimeters  discussed here on the forum.

    @DozerCorbin, you are doing the correct thing by asking lots of questions from lots of sources. With that, you are getting what seemingly is contradictory info. But I don't believe it is!
    Different water temps need different hydro times. And different activators are needed for different films.
    You need to shake it all out in your process control.

    Btw how are you reading the temp of your water? And how large is your water tank?
  • SpinnerSpinner Member Posts: 380 ✭✭✭
    In your first post above, you didn't mention how long you let the film soak before applying the activator or how long you let the activator dwell before dipping.
    The flame films to me look under hydrated... Like they didn't soak long enough. Did the film look like it was creasing as you inserted the part? Rather than stretching or.conforming around the part?

    And you have discovered that different films perform differently using the same process and techniques ( assuming because I didn't observe you working).
  • DozerCorbinDozerCorbin Member Posts: 132
    Spinner said:
    In your first post above, you didn't mention how long you let the film soak before applying the activator or how long you let the activator dwell before dipping.
    The flame films to me look under hydrated... Like they didn't soak long enough. Did the film look like it was creasing as you inserted the part? Rather than stretching or.conforming around the part?

    And you have discovered that different films perform differently using the same process and techniques ( assuming because I didn't observe you working).
    The one thing that I noticed about the flame films was that when I dipped the taped edges would not separate from the film and descend down into the water along with the film. When doing a dip with black and clear or racing bomb film The taped edges stayed next to the baffle pad while the film sperated and descended into the water. So it seemed to me that on the flame film perhaps the flame film wasn't hydrated enough because it still was attached to the tape where the black and clear and racing bomb films detach from the tape once I started to dip.
  • DozerCorbinDozerCorbin Member Posts: 132
    I have decided to purchase the devilbiss GPi set up from K2 concepts. I will have just enough.
  • SpinnerSpinner Member Posts: 380 ✭✭✭
    ...and how long were your soak and dwell times?
  • DozerCorbinDozerCorbin Member Posts: 132
    @spinner I would wait 60-80 seconds before activation. Then about 15 seconds after activation to dip.

    This is an example of the film not detaching from the tape when I began my dip.
    I thought I must have under activated if the film was not hydrated enough to at least seperate from the tape.
  • DozerCorbinDozerCorbin Member Posts: 132
    @spinner
    There is an attachment below of the red flame film about 45 seconds into hydration.
  • SpinnerSpinner Member Posts: 380 ✭✭✭
    That's a good decision to get the GPi.

    Your window of 60 - 80 seconds to too broad, IMO. In this case, 20 seconds is 33% - 25% difference.
    Set the timer for a given time and when it beeps, hit it with activator. Then on observation of the performance, you can adjust the time incrementally to get the best results.
    Each film will need to be given this special attention. Just keep good notes on each attempt so you can zero in on the target.
    The GPi will really help with laying down a consistent spray pattern.

    Like @studebaker said, with your water in the low 80's, your hydration time will be a bit longer, in general.
  • DozerCorbinDozerCorbin Member Posts: 132

    FINALLY!!
    This is the red flame film at 45 seconds of hydration.
    I'm going to try this again but only tape the sides.
  • DozerCorbinDozerCorbin Member Posts: 132
    This is my spray pattern.
  • DozerCorbinDozerCorbin Member Posts: 132
    Spinner said:
    That's a good decision to get the GPi.

    Your window of 60 - 80 seconds to too broad, IMO. In this case, 20 seconds is 33% - 25% difference.
    Set the timer for a given time and when it beeps, hit it with activator. Then on observation of the performance, you can adjust the time incrementally to get the best results.
    Each film will need to be given this special attention. Just keep good notes on each attempt so you can zero in on the target.
    The GPi will really help with laying down a consistent spray pattern.

    Like @studebaker said, with your water in the low 80's, your hydration time will be a bit longer, in general.


    Will I have to worry about overlaying spray causing over hydration with the GPi? 
  • SpinnerSpinner Member Posts: 380 ✭✭✭
    I'm only seeing a picture. But the film in the first pic is expanding...that is the wrinkling.  
    With all four sides taped, and your dams so tight to the tape, I would be surprised if those wrinkles smoothed out.
    The activator will NOT smooth out the wrinkles... They will only look that way after activation. The wrinkled image will transfer to your part.

    You need to create a movable dam setup so the film can expand and you can then adjust the dams to hold the film steady when dipping.
    Jim has a video on making dams with inexpensive  J channel. That would be perfect for that tank set up you have.

    Some films expand more than others.
  • DozerCorbinDozerCorbin Member Posts: 132
    Now with the red flame and the green flame there were faded areas.
    Now look at this roll of green flame film as I was unrolling it, it was so stuck to itself. It was fresh out of the sealed bag which had the little cillica packet in it for absorbing moisture.

    It's just stuck there. 
    I'm thinking that could have been a bad roll of film. Maybe humidity got to it. Who knows really. 
  • studebakerstudebaker Member, Business Ninja Posts: 3,740 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I love your dam! That make a lot of sense. That is not only thinking outside the box, but it making the box think of the inside of its navel. You're gonna go a long way in this business.

    Here's an experiment to try. Don't tape the edges of the film at all. Cut the film one inch bigger than your opening in the Sintra board. On the make table tape only four corners to the top of the Sintra to keep it centered and let it hydrate the normal length of time. Keep in mind that this is an experiment subject to failure, but it's still a learning experience.
  • DozerCorbinDozerCorbin Member Posts: 132
    I love your dam! That make a lot of sense. That is not only thinking outside the box, but it making the box think of the inside of its navel. You're gonna go a long way in this business. Here's an experiment to try. Don't tape the edges of the film at all. Cut the film one inch bigger than your opening in the Sintra board. On the make table tape only four corners to the top of the Sintra to keep it centered and let it hydrate the normal length of time. Keep in mind that this is an experiment subject to failure, but it's still a learning experience.
    Will do, I'm going to send how I started this. You will laugh silly. But I mean to get off this disability. I will make this happen.
    First bufferboards...
    Second....

    This is how I would slide the big films into the tank....

    Then I started using the foam boards as my boarders. Even came up with four designs to possibly save time from cutting boards.

  • SpinnerSpinner Member Posts: 380 ✭✭✭
    My experience with those production flame films..blue, pink, green, and orange has been the same. Within just a few seconds of the hydration cycle, they expand and stick to themselves creating a wrinkle that cannot be pulled apart. That wrinkle - if you decide to go forward with the dip - is then transfered to the part. I have learned to NOT dip the part and just throw that piece of film away.

    The orange flame dip you pictured shows this as the white horizontal line. The green one looks to have a wrinkle running vertically on the right. Oh, and a big droplet of activator, of course.

    Those flame films have given me fits. I have had much better results with the custom printed flame film than the production flame film. I don't buy the production flame films anymore that you are showing.

    I have a thread from not too long about where I was trying to figure out the blue flames... A Tale of Three Activators...


  • DozerCorbinDozerCorbin Member Posts: 132
    Spinner said:

    My experience with those production flame films..blue, pink, green, and orange has been the same. Within just a few seconds of the hydration cycle, they expand and stick to themselves creating a wrinkle that cannot be pulled apart. That wrinkle - if you decide to go forward with the dip - is then transfered to the part. I have learned to NOT dip the part and just throw that piece of film away.

    The orange flame dip you pictured shows this as the white horizontal line. The green one looks to have a wrinkle running vertically on the right. Oh, and a big droplet of activator, of course.

    Those flame films have given me fits. I have had much better results with the custom printed flame film than the production flame film. I don't buy the production flame films anymore that you are showing.

    I have a thread from not too long about where I was trying to figure out the blue flames... A Tale of Three Activators...


    The green film as I showed above had an air bubble under the film that I missed. My concern is the faded look on the film almost looking like sea foam or such. I showed the film above as I had tried to unroll it. It was stuck together.
    I'm headed to the shop to try just taping the sides and the experiment.
    Thanks everyone for your input and advise.
  • loochlooch Member Posts: 2,030 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @DozerCorbin great choice on activator gun 
  • DozerCorbinDozerCorbin Member Posts: 132
    I stopped taping all four sides. Here is the results of that which actually turned out better because the film did not have ruffles. But as you will see in the last few pictures I'm still having that faded look. And I let this set for about 2 to 3 minutes before I rinsed it. if you look at the last picture you will see that it looks like the film began to run a little bit. I wonder if I would have had immediately rinsed it.

    25 seconds into hydration....

    45 seconds...
    It settled down after I put camera back. Then activated with a slow 2 count pass spray. 

    Rinsed...


  • DozerCorbinDozerCorbin Member Posts: 132
    I stopped taping all four sides. Here is the results of that which actually turned out better because the film did not have ruffles. But as you will see in the last few pictures I'm still having that faded look. And I let this set for about 2 to 3 minutes before I rinsed it. if you look at the last picture you will see that it looks like the film began to run a little bit. I wonder if I would have had immediately rinsed it.

    25 seconds into hydration....

    45 seconds...
    It settled down after I put camera back. Then activated with a slow 2 count pass spray. 

    Rinsed...



  • DozerCorbinDozerCorbin Member Posts: 132
    @WileECoyote, @looch, @Spinner, @studebaker
    I had these extra film pieces in a tub with tight lid. Had a silica pack in the tub to dú moisture.
    They had been in they anywhere from a couple days to over two weeks. I tried to activate one piece, sprayed activator in 4 separate passes with no, NO!, reaction.
    So am I correct in assuming that if film is left out and exposed to humidity it will fail to respond to activator. 
  • studebakerstudebaker Member, Business Ninja Posts: 3,740 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No, that is an incorrect assumption. The only time film will NOT react to activator is when it's on the water upside down. But you are correct in the assumption that humidity is bad for the film in that it messes up your timing of the hydration time. When film has humidity saturation it is essentially "pre-hydrated". So who knows when the right "softness" (centipoise) point has been achieved and it's time to apply activator.
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