mitty from the black country saying hello

mittymitty Posts: 7Member
just waiting for ebay to send me some film and activator then in at the deep end lol
question how critical is the water temp ? cheers mitty

Comments

  • smedlinsmedlin Posts: 2,125Member, Business Ninja ✭✭✭✭✭
    critical.. specially for a beginner.

    Howdy and welcome to the forums!

    Where ya from?
  • DallenDallen Posts: 1,759Member, Business Ninja ✭✭✭✭
    welcome to the forum
  • studebakerstudebaker Posts: 3,322Member, Business Ninja ✭✭✭✭✭
    I know I'm gonna get some (lots) of flak for this but, water temperature and time are the deciding factors as to how soft the PVA film is at a given point in time. You want a specific "softness" of your film when you pass your object through the water surface interface. Three variables come into play that affect when the correct "softness" happens. 1. Initial FIlm Humidity Level 2. Water Temperature 3. Hydration Time.

    For example: if you lay the film on the surface of 72F water, then it will take 4-5 minutes to be ready for dipping. If you lay it on 120F water, it will take 30 seconds to get to that stage. And to mess the whole timing thing up even more, if you film had absorbed humidity to the 75% level and when you placed it on 90F water it would get to the right softness at 40 seconds. And then by the time you dipped it at the 90-second mark, it would radically stretch and cause the color to fade dramatically among many other undesirable side effects.

    The reason that 90F/ 32C water is recommended is that it is a known variable that will achieve the desired film viscosity for activating at the 60-second mark. There are other semi-rational reasons that 90F was chosen for the universal water dipping temp that I can explain more in depth at a later date.

    So, to answer your question, The temperature of the water is not critical per se, but it needs to be the SAME temperature every time you dip for repeatable success.

    Welcome to the forum!
  • WileECoyoteWileECoyote Posts: 7,003Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    To add to @studebaker 's comments, 90° is an accepted variable that people on this forum use as a baseline when trouble shooting. If you choose to run at a different temp, you are going to make it much harder for us to help you.
  • NotSoFastNotSoFast Posts: 3,409Member, Moderator El Moderator
    An additional thought and please don't take offense. If you don't yet know how critical water temp is, I would assume you don't know many more even more important things about the process. Read as much as you can in this forum and absorb it. Buy good materials and tools. You cannot produce consistently good results by cutting corners. Oh, and good luck.
  • K2ConceptsK2Concepts Posts: 13,920Administrator El Jefe
    And welcome from me as well...thank you for joining!...
  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 9,988Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    Welcome!
  • NickelCityHydroNickelCityHydro Posts: 711Member, Business Ninja ✭✭✭
    Welcome to the forum and good luck!
  • mittymitty Posts: 7Member
    thanks guys for the heads up,youve guessed right this will be my first attempt ,ive ordered a water heater on your advice and will try to get it to 90 ,i will do a couple of test pieces in the carbon ive ordered before i let loose on the motorcycle bellypan,hugger,front guard and small headlamp fairings ,i would have done the fuel tank as well but ive only a 130lt bosh to dip in so i will be asking advice on how to part dip as my colour scheme is rosso red and carbon ,still awaiting my products which should arrive tomorrow,i will of course post some pics for you all to have a laugh at yes even if i have a disaster that way you guys can see better where im going wrong
    question standard carbon effect basecoat colour black or charcoal grey metallic ??

    once again many thanks for the online coaching lol
  • WileECoyoteWileECoyote Posts: 7,003Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    You are going to want to practice for about a year before you tackle those projects. Some of those are complex dips, and require techniques that you can't even imagine right now. In addition, carbon fiber is a TERRIBLE film to start with as it shows EVERYTHING. What paint are you using for this?
  • mittymitty Posts: 7Member

    You are going to want to practice for about a year before you tackle those projects. Some of those are complex dips, and require techniques that you can't even imagine right now. In addition, carbon fiber is a TERRIBLE film to start with as it shows EVERYTHING. What paint are you using for this?

    cheers for that that inspires confidence ,base coat 1/1 mix
  • WileECoyoteWileECoyote Posts: 7,003Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    Just trying to give it to you straight. I was more asking who is the manufacturer of the paint you are going to use. Sounds like a 2K automotive, but I don't know of anyone who has a 1:1 resin to catalyst mix. I assume you already know about the recoatability/dip window that you have with that paint (if not the information is available on your TDS or from your supplier).

    I don't know your skill set, or experience with this process, but I have seen MANY guys come in with a "failed" dip asking "what 2 or 3 things did I do wrong here?" only to find out they have so many problems that they did not know they would encounter. Now they are left with parts that need to be stripped down, wasted money in a setup that they can't use, and frustration with us for not giving them enough info to start with.
  • mittymitty Posts: 7Member
    1/1 base is standard basecoat mix 50% paint 50% thinners 35yrs building bespoke motorcycles for a living ,i paint,weld,fabricate and machine no experience in hydro dipping hence the questions,but we all start somewhere ,i could airbrush this but what a time saver it is to be able to dip and clear ,yes the panels will be both paint and dip ,i will paint first then simply mask out and basecoat the areas i want to dip the whole piece will then be cleared that is my plan anyway ,ive already prept and basecoated a few test pieces various colours black, charcoal and silver to attain the desirable effect ,cant wait to get cracking but my film hasn't arrived as yet
  • WileECoyoteWileECoyote Posts: 7,003Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    If you look at my post, you will see I mentioned a resin to catalyst ratio. It sounds like you are using a 2k paint, just describing it in a different way.
    mitty said:

    ive already prept and basecoated a few test pieces various colours black, charcoal and silver to attain the desirable effect ,cant wait to get cracking but my film hasn't arrived as yet

    This is where you are going to experience a problem. Typically the recoatability/dip window is 8-12 hours after the part is painted. If you already have them painted, the dip will not stick, and neither will the clear that you have to apply after... and sanding won't help.
  • smedlinsmedlin Posts: 2,125Member, Business Ninja ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'd start out with some really small test/throw away pieces Mitty. Try some light switch covers to get the activation down.

    Then find some things laying around the house to dip.. stuff that will require you to change the angle of the part while your putting it in the water.

    than, once you build your confidence up.. THEN try the motorcycle parts.

    And yes, @WileECoyote is correct on what he's telling you. Most paints "cure".. or "harden up".. "close up" in 24 hours or less. When that happens, the dip will not stick.. it will come up. So will the clear coat.

    A lot of people use automotive paint for this process.. but they paint/dip/clear all in the same day.

    Most of us here use special paints made for this process. They stretch that recoat window out months instead of just hours.

    But.. don't let that get you down. Just adjust your procedure. And let's see those dips.. be they good of bad

    (trust me, every person here has had their share of bad dips...)

    .
  • NotSoFastNotSoFast Posts: 3,409Member, Moderator El Moderator
    Take pictures of the dips. It helps a ton to figure out what went wrong.

  • K2ConceptsK2Concepts Posts: 13,920Administrator El Jefe
    All good advice...
  • mittymitty Posts: 7Member

    Typically the recoatability/dip window is 8-12 hours after the part is painted. If you already have them painted, the dip will not stick
    NotSoFast said:

    Take pictures of the dips. It helps a ton to figure out what went wrong.



    smedlin said:

    I'd start out with some really small test/throw away pieces Mitty. Try some light switch covers to get the activation down.

    Then find some things laying around the house to dip.. stuff that will require you to change the angle of the part while your putting it in the water.

    than, once you build your confidence up.. THEN try the motorcycle parts.

    And yes, @WileECoyote is correct on what he's telling you. Most paints "cure".. or "harden up".. "close up" in 24 hours or less. When that happens, the dip will not stick.. it will come up. So will the clear coat.



    this is exactly why i signed up here great advice mentioning things i wouldn't have dreamed to asked yet seem so critical ,youtube make it look so easy lol but as most things in life the more you do the better you get ,i would have failed before i started without this info cheers guys

  • mittymitty Posts: 7Member




    This is where you are going to experience a problem. Typically the recoatability/dip window is 8-12 hours after the part is painted. If you already have them painted, the dip will not stick, and neither will the clear that you have to apply after... and sanding won't help.





    than, once you build your confidence up.. THEN try the motorcycle parts.

    .

    A lot of people use automotive paint for this process.. but they paint/dip/clear all in the same day.

    Most of us here use special paints made for this process. They stretch that recoat window out months instead of just hours.

    But.. don't let that get you down. Just adjust your procedure. And let's see those dips.. be they good of bad

    (trust me, every person here has had their share of bad dips...)

    .


    great replies thanks for the heads up guys ,things i wouldn't have dreamed of asking ,knowledge is certainly king

  • mittymitty Posts: 7Member
    edited June 12
    first attempt next to a king sportster tank i painted,loads of problems with the dip ,film stretched to much due to the dams to far apart and dont think i rinsed the part enough and dropped the clear on to quick ,back to a previous comment re window for clearcoat using automotive paint ,after dipping give the piece a coat of binder (unpigmented 2k basically paint without a colour) you can clear it then whenever you wish years later if you wanted to .....think i need a lot more practise before i let loose on propper panels lol
  • NotSoFastNotSoFast Posts: 3,409Member, Moderator El Moderator
    Too much air pressure when activating will make "straight" patterns like carbon fiber get wavy, too. The air pushes the pattern around on the water.
  • K2ConceptsK2Concepts Posts: 13,920Administrator El Jefe
    NotSoFast said:

    Too much air pressure when activating will make "straight" patterns like carbon fiber get wavy, too. The air pushes the pattern around on the water.

    This...
  • WileECoyoteWileECoyote Posts: 7,003Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    You need to use that binder BEFORE you dip. The print can't bite into cured 2K any better than clear can. Just for simplicity sake, we call that innercoat clear. Lots of hydrographics paint suppliers sell unpigmented resin just for that reason.
  • WileECoyoteWileECoyote Posts: 7,003Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    Another thought... you won't get adhesion between the basecoat layer and the innercoat layer if you don't scuff the base after the window is closed. If the basecoat is a metalic, or something that can't be scuffed, you are going to have to start over.
  • onehitwonderonehitwonder Posts: 2,800Member, Business Ninja ✭✭✭✭✭
    Try OHW paint. We have built every type of paint needed for this process, and will dramatically improve your dipping results.
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