16 gauge carbon steel tank build Question? 3 wide or 4 wide
willie14228
Member Posts: 235 ✭✭✭
in DIY Tanks
I promise Jim I did listen and I understand I am taking the long way around the pond, I just don't have a choice budget wise. I am I think and hope taking the right steps for the second best choice though.
First is that I am going to be using a material that will rust and that the activator makes it very difficult to find a coating that will not breakdown.
After doing some research and watching some very interesting results I believe I may have found a paint on rust prevention system from por 15. This material has stood up against both brake fluid and paint stripper according to this You Tube video (Yeah we all believe what we see on the internet) a neat little thing about this manufacture is they offer a sample kit for about 20 bucks that you can test out
por15.com/SUPER-STARTER-KIT_p_11.html
More details about it here
por15.com/POR-15supregsup-Rust-Preventive-Coating_p_8.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uxQLKny_dEI have seen what brake fluid can do to paint so if this stuff can stand up to being soaked in it and paint stripper I think it will stand up to watered down activator
I got a really good deal on 3 sheets of 4x8 16 gauge steel and I am using a 14 gauge plate on the bottom, 2 sticks of 24 feet 1" square tubing and 24 feet of 1 1/2 inch angle iron $250.00
My build dims are 4Wx7Lx3D With an outside Skimmer tank I will have a 7 foot long work area
The tank itself will be fully framed with angle iron and bottom and side braced with tubing. I'm also going to use my excess to weld flex bands along the bottom to strengthen the bottom sheet along with building my skim tank
For Heating I am going to try something that I mentioned in another post and that is the self circulation engine block heater from Kats,
Tools being used,
14 gauge electric sheet metal shears
https://harborfreight.com/14-gauge-4-amp-heavy-duty-metal-shears-68199.html
For Harbor Freight tools this little jewel is one crazy good work horse so far it cuts the 16 gauge steal cleanly and is easy to follow a line with. The trick is to remember it takes close to a 1/4 inch off in material and keep your excess piece from flexing so it doesn't bind anything up
14 Inch cut off saw
Sheet Rock Square
I am having the tank welded by someone else I don't have the skill to make those kinds of welds
So far in material I have $300 This is in steel alone it does not include plumbing, dams, pump or heater.
I am at the point right now of trying to decide on my width of the tank, We are talking about the difference of 200 gallons of water and 1600 pounds of weight
The balance point on this though is factory cuts vs hand cuts, this in itself can make the difference in the difficulty of the welds and structural strength.
4 wheelers, ATVs and custom pickup shops are big in this area and so I want to leave myself an opening to be able to do them if so called for, even though most film is only 3 feet I wonder if that extra 1 foot in width would give some needed room for those kind of dips?
What's your feelings?
Comments
Those welds are going to stress, and you are going to have a 1000 gallons of water on the floor of your shop.
POR is a good coating but it has its limits, It's expensive and you have a limited time to work with the opened material.
If you are good enough at this, your upgrade tank would pay for itself when you decide to do 4 wheelers, golf carts, and truck parts... you are a long way from that right now.
I guess I don't understand the explanation "I don't have a choice budget-wise"... then why are you trying to do it? Just because you REALLY want too doesn't mean you should. Look around this forum... there are LITERALLY HUNDREDS of people that thought they could do this cheaply... Why do you think you are the exception to the rule?
This!! is 16 gauge steel what is wrong with it?
This is a remark from a sponsor tank builder " Most tanks are made from 16 gauge steel, The tinsel strength of stainless and carbon is the same So if a 16 gauge stainless tank will hold the water so will a carbon steel tank if it is properly braced k2forums.com/discussion/comment/151#Comment_151
@WileECoyote
You are comparing a tank that was OBVIOUSLY bent using a brake press to one that you are going to make using a Harbor Freight nibbler. They eliminate seams by bending the metal instead of welding every time they make an edge. Bending is SIGNIFICANTLY stronger than cutting pieces of metal and stitching them together.
But seriously, what do I know? I am just a dude on the internet with 5 years as a sheetmetal fabricator, 10 years in maintenance, and 5 years as an engineer.
I am actually trying to save you from wasting money, not crushing your dreams.
Would you rather I just say "Sounds good, go for it?"
Oh hey here is an idea!! you are supposed to be a MOD how about you read your own rules about flaming
Everything I have read about the POR 15 is the ticket, I called them today and talked to the techs explaining what I would be doing with it. And he stated that it will stand up to the activator, I also asked about flexibility as many of the epoxy paints tend to be brittle and will crack, he said that they have tested the par 15 on coil springs without it cracking or breaking out.
Like I said, I am trying to save you money here, but in the end, it's your choice. Do as you will. Keep in mind... Lots of people get into this with big ideas and don't like to hear words to the contrary... And I don't see any of them around here no more.
Also, trying to point out the flaws that are glaringly obvious to experienced professionals to the guys that are new to the game isn't flaming. It may be seen as crushing your dreams at worst. Helping a new dipper to not unknowingly get in over his head at best.
I am not sure what you mean, I am not using the nibbler to cut breaks or anything my purpose for the nibbler was to cut my plates down to my outside tank dimensions. And all of the dip tanks that I have looked at available through sponsors are welded plates with tension brakes on the top edge and on the sides, but they are welded on all four sides. The only difference in the tank I am having built is my tensioners are being added to the plate and not part of the plate itself.
The top edge of the tank will have mitered square tubing wrapped around the tank, Then 8 inches from the top of the tank down I will have an 2 inch angle iron mitered and wrapped. This is the same concept as a V break in the factory tanks, yes it will add weight to the tank but as long as it is properly welded to the sides of the tank it will not allow the tank to bulge or flex
@NotSoFast
just because I am working and staying within my budget doesn't mean that I cannot create a successful business in this field, There are ways to reduce the investment into a companies startup , You can reduce your start up cost through labor and that's all I am doing.
let me ask you this, between carbon steel and stainless steel structurally is there any difference in the two?
From all the research I have done the only difference is the ability of stainless to resist corrosion, and that can be effected if the seams are welded too hot. As a matter of fact, stainless steel can be more brittle at the welds than mild steel and can produce micro cracks in the weld seams due to the fact that stainless steal does not conduct the heat away from the welds as fast.
What exactly makes a Stainless Steel Dip tank the proper tool for dipping? Set aside the Snap-On tools mentality and answer that
I am sorry but I cannot help but think that many of you guys have that exact mentality if it doesn't have this or that name on the side of it then it is not the right tool for the job.
What are specifications needed to perform a proper and uniform repeatable dipping process as far as the dip tank goes
1. uniform water temp
2. clean and bubble free surface area
3. enough surface area for the film to properly cover the part being dipped
4. the depth to allow for proper angle of item being dipped
5. The ability to dam and hold the film during the dipping process
6. Made from Material that will not contaminate the water with its own chemicals or minerals
7. safely able to hold the quantity of the water needed to perform its function
8. Supporting equipment such as pump and heating safely wired and installed
So if my DIY is able to perform those functions then why is it not a proper tool for the job?
I already answered this very same remark from both of you in much earlier post about me working within my budget and saving money through labor so yes if having to do so every freaking time I post trying to save money response is along the same lines WTF do you call it if not flaming and attack?????
k2forums.com/discussion/11057/hello-from-east-texas#latest
I HAVE BEEN PUT ON NOTICE! this **badword** is expensive I GOT IT!!! So I will ask you directly let me worry about my investment and my budget planning
thank you
I can't help but notice your Snap-on reference. How many successful, profitable auto mechanics have you seen with a tool box full of Snap-on tools versus Harbor Freight tools? After all, Harbor freight is cheaper so it's the logical choice to be profitable in this profession, right? Less money spent on tools is more profit.
One interruption in production could potentially erase the savings realized between a reliable tank and one that the user hopes will be reliable.
If 16ga black iron was a good choice and was so much cheaper than stainless, why don't professional tank builders use it? It seems logical that a tank that is half the price of the competition yet still performs just as well would be the best selling tank on the market? Is it not as good or did no one ever think of using black iron in the past 20 years? Maybe they just don't want to sell more tanks and be more profitable? Only one of these scenarios seems to make any sense to me.
Feel free to do it your way. I sincerely hope you do well and never have a problem with whatever tools you choose to use in your business.
The statements here are 100% true, though a little hard to swallow. I know firsthand that Downtime is EXPENSIVE. And Inferior equipment can be more expensive to a professional business in the long run. Inferior equipment doesn't necessarily mean "home built" either. My inferior equipment cost me a ton of money up front from a "pro" company. I was uneducated about the process. I thought it was just a big tank of warm water and an arm that went up and down. Every piece of equipment from this company has been heavily modified to keep up with our production and I could have saved a crap load of money if this forum existed back then and @WileECoyote and @NotSoFast had kicked me in the **badword** early on.
There is no correct answer here for your personal situation. You just have to weigh the options. If you can save money on building the tank, invest those savings wisely and get some professional training! I really think you can do it and likely save money, just remember your time is worth something. In certain situations it ends up being more cost effective to work overtime at your job and save up. If you make $20/hour at your day job, $30/hour overtime, then any time you bill out after your day job should at minimum be $30/hour shop rate. If not, why not just work overtime? You probably have a good 40+ hours in research time already. That's $1200 you could have made and banked toward a 100% pro tank. This is very generalized and oversimplified. And it may not even apply to your situation at all, but it's just something to think about that often gets overlooked.
Again, I think you CAN do it!! Even though this was a rough thread, I think you will
Come out of it with a ton of knowledge and more to think about concerning your build.
And not one shop owned tool was Snap On
Not by my choice but by the choice of the VP of maintenance who ran the Fargo ND shop for over 35 years and a mechanic for the an additional 10 and who's toolbox had as many Craftsman tools in it as any other.
Snap on popularity with mechanics lays primarily in the simple fact that if you are employed at a shop who that truck comes to you can get an line of credit. Simple as that! Their tools are no better than many others on the market for half the price. And I'm not just talking out of my **badword** on this I have seen just as many Snap On wrenches break as any other brand. And I have seen plenty of mechanics 14, 15 grand in the hole because it's so [email protected]@# easy to walk in that truck sign a piece of paper and walk out owning a status symbol in the form of a brand new fancy tool box with big pretty chrome lettering.
Oh news flash
Most mechanics don't own a business they work for one because they are so far in that hole.
And just as many of those has the same knee jerk response as you do
And you did not answer my simple direct question?
What makes a Stainless steel tank the only proper tool for a dipping tank?
I helped my partner design and build his tank out of a milk tank and we fabricated a rinse station out of stainless as well. His neighbor is a stainless fabricator and one of his best friends is a machinist. In addition to help with the fabrication, I wired the heaters and pump for the tank, we kept it simple because we weren't doing production but at any point I could have designed and built a control for the whole operation, up too and including an automated spray bar and robotic 5 axis dipping robotic arm, had we chosen that path (I am not talking out my **badword**, I already had a Fanuc clear coating robot for Harley under my belt). On top of that, I have been on this forum for over 3 years, and just passed 5 thousand comments (with 22 disagrees, which seems like it should be higher...) So when I say I am qualified to know what it takes, I am not just out here waving my [email protected]©k around.
Mitering some square tubing at the top of your tank is not the same as putting a formed lip in the material. Welding some angle iron on the outside is not the same as putting a strengthening rib (or 2 which Jim says is a better idea) in the base material. Yes, the 4 corners of the pro tanks are welded... But the lower (MUCH longer and important) welds are overlapped with a bend where it meets the plate that creates the bottom of the tank.
All of my advice aside, you are on a forum asking for advice, and people who have been in the business longer than you... are telling you that you are starting out in a bad spot... And you are disagreeing with them... I don't get paid to contribute to this forum, I have no beef against you as a person, and your business is no threat to me, what possible reason would I have to keep you down? Other than me actually trying to help you? The people that have contributed to this thread (who you feel are crushing your dreams and just can't understand what it's like to be a little guy trying to get into this business) are actually your best friends in the whole world... Trying to help you not make a mistake that is gonna cost you money you will never get back.
Again, in the end, it's your choice, do as you like. If you crash and burn, or become a millionaire... I don't actually care.
The choice really is yours.
If it fails..well, shoot, at least you tried!
The vast vast majority of innovation fails.. the vast majority. But.. sometimes it works. Maybe your that sometimes.
hey, if your able to do it and it works, outstanding. You can stand there and proudly say "i did it, just like i did Jim's Mom".
And I totally get trying to stick to a budget. When Jon and I started doing this in the fall we thought we'd both pump $1000-1500 into it and off we'd go....9 months later... We're closing in on 16k spent (not including training, which we both agree was some of the best money we spent) and finally are kinda close to getting this off the ground. Our tank works great, and hopefully it continues to. But we spent around $3-3500 building it and close to 100 hours a piece building it. So valuing our time at a measly $25/hr x 200 combined hours.
5000$+our 3000$ invested......did we actually save money? That time could've been used to learn the process and work on our skills.....about a month or 2 after we finished a 6ft PA hydrographics tank we up for sale 2 hours from me for $3500....I can honestly say that would have been a way better option....
I know it seems like alot of these guys are being naysayers, say you have to have a budget far bigger than what you anticipated, and seem to push training like crazy.....but I'm telling you right now, if I hadn't been so stubborn at the beginning and had listened I'd probably be better off.
But you only just now did answer my question sir, or at least part of it you informed me what I needed to do to overcome in the weakness of my DIY tank.
So I will continue with the issue at hand, Is there any Structural reason why a carbon steel tank cannot be used as a dip tank the very same brakes that you are describing can be put in carbon steel as stainless
Sir your first post really had nothing to do with the tank build but instead about me stating I was working on a budget your response then why are you doing it!
It took you four posts to actually answer the tank issue while all your others boiled down too If you don't have 15 grand to lay on the table right now then you need to F.O, drop the whole idea and let the big dogs handle it.
And not one shop owned tool was Snap On
Not by my choice but by the choice of the VP of maintenance who ran the Fargo ND shop for over 35 years and a mechanic for the an additional 10 and who's toolbox had as many Craftsman tools in it as any other.
Snap on popularity with mechanics lays primarily in the simple fact that if you are employed at a shop who that truck comes to you can get an line of credit. Simple as that! Their tools are no better than many others on the market for half the price. And I'm not just talking out of my **badword** on this I have seen just as many Snap On wrenches break as any other brand. And I have seen plenty of mechanics 14, 15 grand in the hole because it's so [email protected]@# easy to walk in that truck sign a piece of paper and walk out owning a status symbol in the form of a brand new fancy tool box with big pretty chrome lettering.
Oh news flash
Most mechanics don't own a business they work for one because they are so far in that hole.
And just as many of those has the same knee jerk response as you do
And you did not answer my simple direct question?
What makes a Stainless steel tank the only proper tool for a dipping tank?
You act like Craftsman isn't a "pro" line of tools like Snap-on. I built firetrucks, up to 350 of them a year, for 18 years and ALL of my tools are Craftsman, with the odd specialty tool thrown in there. In this analogy, Craftsman would be equated to another brand of "store bought" tanks, along with Snap-on...not compared to bargain-basement tools, which equate to bargain-basement tanks.
as far as a direct answer to your question again...reliability. Rust damages your pump leading to break downs and lost time/money. It also leads to leaks which also cause equal downtime and lead to more lost money when your shop and the things in it are damaged. Thin (16ga) black iron is weaker than the same thickness of stainless. That means weaker welds and more money spent on coatings that activator (hopefully) won't eat through after years of use and more money on bracing. Most people realize that time is money. The more time (money) spent on designing and making a tank that hopefully will work correctly and without issue is actually eating away the savings that you theoretically getting by building a tank in the first place.
Now...please tell me why tank manufacturers make tanks out of chemically resistant stainless steel and sometimes poly plastics, both of which are much more expensive to manufacture, thus slashing potential sales to people who can't afford expensive tanks. There is obviously a market for less expensive tanks. Either there is something inherently wrong with using cheaper materials or every tank builder is stupid and has never thought of building them out of cheaper materials. There has to be a logical reason and "because people like shiny stainless" ain't it.
as far as a direct answer to your question again...reliability. Rust damages your pump leading to break downs and lost time/money. It also leads to leaks which also cause equal downtime and lead to more lost money when your shop and the things in it are damaged. Thin (16ga) black iron is weaker than the same thickness of stainless. That means weaker welds and more money spent on coatings that activator (hopefully) won't eat through after years of use and more money on bracing. Most people realize that time is money. The more time (money) spent on designing and making a tank that hopefully will work correctly and without issue is actually eating away the savings that you theoretically getting by building a tank in the first place.
Now...please tell me why tank manufacturers make tanks out of chemically resistant stainless steel and sometimes poly plastics, both of which are much more expensive to manufacture, thus slashing potential sales to people who can't afford expensive tanks. There is obviously a market for less expensive tanks. Either there is something inherently wrong with using cheaper materials or every tank builder is stupid and has never thought of building them out of cheaper materials. There has to be a logical reason and "because people like shiny stainless" ain't it.
Not at all, in fact you made my very point. I Actually know some extremely talented mechanics that has been turned away from a job because the shop foreman wouldn't hire a mechanic without seeing a picture of his toolbox if it was anything but a snap on, or mac he would turn them away on the spot. Snap on tools are almost twice the cost of Craftsman and that is before you involve truck or corporate financing
So why is Snap On so big with the mechanic shops themselves if other just a good quality tools are available on the market
I will tell you one little inside reason, Labor retention-- That same mechanic who jumped in that truck to go get his bad to the bone toolbox had to bring me a part of the contract to sign that said that if he quit or was terminated the toolbox could only be taken out of my shop by the tool truck. So if that guy up and decided the grass is greener somewhere else but they wouldn't agree to take on the liability I did with his box he could lose it.
What is more while being made in the condescending manor on the last part of your remark I do think there is a "pro" roadblock involved in the tank manufacturers pricing structure. After all you would be pretty pissed if you purchased a tank for your company and a year later that same supplier started selling a tank in the same dims for half the price to one of your local competitors. Mad enough I would wager to take your business elsewhere and encourage all of your buddies on this forum to do the same. After all, that tank is only what maybe 10% of the revenue of many hydrographic suppliers.
So yes just like oil prices I do believe to some extent there is a unspoken agreement in the pricing structure of those tanks.
And if I am going to be bluntly honest on that remark to you then I also need to be so to myself, and that is that there is a good reason for this, after all if anyone can go grab a tank and produce substandard work that puts a bad taste and name to the hydrographics industry in general because they were not willing to invest the time and money to learn and do the job properly then it is not just themselves they have hurt, but everyone in that industry.
Go through the archives and follow up on the vast majority of the people that didn't have the money to start this up. And it's just a symptom of a bigger issue. Even if you could build a perfect tank for $1000, the overall problem is that if you have to cut corners to get a tank, then you have to cut corners on most other things and certainly don't have enough capital to support your business for the 2-3 years (if you're lucky) before you start turning a profit.
As I have said before, I contribute to this forum and am not paid for my time... Which has the added benefit of not being bound to the sponsors, you can do business with whoever you please, it doesn't effect me one bit. The sponsors support this forum because it is a gathering of customers that they can tap, and they are held to standards of service by the community... Not me.
If you notice... I said at least twice, you can do whatever you want
And I do have another option, I can just stop commenting on your post. Maybe I can use the extra time to work on my shocked face while waiting for the inevitable...
@willie14228 I don't see any flaming by my definition of the word...disagreements? Yes but that is the way of the forum life...no one is going to have the same 2 opinions about what to do to start a business...hell even I get into it and I am WAY more biased than @WileECoyote because I actually have a Hydro business that would be in direct competition with someone else starting a business...and yet I do not fear that possibility. Why? Because if every carpenter or electrician or any other tradesman never trained anyone else because he was worried about that apprentice going into business for himself? Think about what a ridiculous world that would be...
So back on track? Yes an extra foot could make a difference...if the film you choose would stretch that extra foot without breaking down...what good is the extra tank area if the film looks like hell when you are done? If you use the "Better to have it and not need it" mentality? Then yes by all means...
But as you brought out? It will add stress to your (in my opinion) already questionable steel thickness.
Here is the thing to remember about steel...the most IMPORTANT thing to remember...
Carbon steel and stainless steel are different, but one is not necessarily superior to the other. It’s all about context. Each material has advantages and disadvantages—the key is matching the steel to the job requirements.
THAT is the important thing...by using a steel (any steel) in a use that is disadvantageous to the composition of the steel in question? you are already undermining the major building block of your particular design use...
And using that @RBMW post is probably not a good reference...that guy only made 4 posts and has not been active since...which is never a good sign...It's like a guy who says he made a parachute out of old sheets and filming it opening while on a windy day in the park and he closes by saying "I am going to put it to use and make some videos of my DIY parachute done on the cheap"...
Sure everything looks good but then you always wonder why you never heard from him again?...
Now you can quit reading here if you wish but now I will point out the glaringly obvious points that my friend @WileECoyote ineloquently tried pointing out...Just the big 3...I have more but I am not going to beat a dead horse...
High Carbon Steel:
- Vulnerable to rust (regardless of the coating you apply? It's still a band-aid to the direct composition of the metal...it's gonna rust)
- Brittle (hard metals are also brittle: when placed under extreme tensile stress, high carbon steels are more likely to crack than bend) and guess what? You have a CRAPLOAD of extreme tensile stress going on there between loading and unloading that tank with water...especially when you empty it out for cleaning...
- Wear-resistant which is not just scraping materials off the surface...it's the day in and day out use that beats up a tank...
Stainless Steel- Resistant to rust
- Less brittle
- Less wear-resistant
Bottom line? Are you using an inferior product application for the sake of monetary deficiency in your plan?...While this may sound cruel? It's always the case and you are by no means singled out...sometimes these guys on the forum get tired of saying it and they get frustrated...so yes they need to back off and just let the chips fall where they may...they are good men and only want the best for new guys or even us older professionals who come here for advice...they are just imperfect men and sometimes do not communicate effectively...
As for the design? Put the thing through SolidWorks and have the engineer print out a report so you can see the design strengths and weaknesses...that's what I did...the $400 for the report was worth it...
Now lastly I want to address the "conspiracy theory" aspect of your posts. @willie14228 there is no "push" when it comes to our forum sponsors. Although it might be perceived as some price control? Trust me that NONE of the tank manufacturers fix their pricing...nor is there some form of "Cartel" influence...most, if not all of the tank manufacturers do not even like each other and only are on here together because of the advertising aspect...so I can unequivocally say there is no price fixing...
The only reason these guys recommend the sponsors STRONGLY is that if there is ever a problem? I or one of my mods can step in and resolve the issue fairly quickly...which we could not do with an outside resource...it's that simple...you have some sort of protection here versus the swine of humanity that advertises on FaceChat or Flitter or InstaCrap or SnapSpace or FleaBay...or any of the other 100's of crappy suppliers out there...each one of the sponsors knows, before they even sponsor the forum, that they will be held to a higher standard and they all agree to it...
Well enough of this madness...back to running the forum...