Flame Treating

Gunsmith53Gunsmith53 Posts: 198Member ✭✭
in Tips and Techniques
What is the name of the Chemical thaqt supposedly takes the place of Flame treating? I know there is one, I just can't think of the name of it.
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  • DeviousDipsDeviousDips Posts: 1,651Member ✭✭✭✭
    @Gunsmith53 Big Brain has Blast Majic and PPG makes one but can't think of the name. 
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  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 9,404Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    edited June 2017
    Yeah check out Big Brain's. Supposedly works very well.
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  • TrayersSlayersTrayersSlayers Posts: 257Member ✭✭✭
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  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 9,404Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    There it is! Thanks Jason.
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  • Gunsmith53Gunsmith53 Posts: 198Member ✭✭
    One Choice, That's the name of the Chemical I was trying to remember. That's it. Thanks TrayersSlayers
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  • Gunsmith53Gunsmith53 Posts: 198Member ✭✭
    Is it hard to find? I bet the shop has it don't they?
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  • TrayersSlayersTrayersSlayers Posts: 257Member ✭✭✭
    Most paint shops carry it
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  • IceMasterIceMaster Posts: 1,333Member ✭✭✭✭
    @Gunsmith53 - you're not talking about an adhesion promoter are you? Because the way it was explained to me, this sx103 doesn't act as an AP. Can anyone confirm this?
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  • TrayersSlayersTrayersSlayers Posts: 257Member ✭✭✭
    @IceMaster its not a AP you are correct. It removes the molding release agents. If you want a AP buy some nano-chem. Use a paint like aqualac, or lowcountry you wont need a AP, I know Joe still uses a AP even though he uses Aqualac just incase. 
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  • IceMasterIceMaster Posts: 1,333Member ✭✭✭✭
    @TrayersSlayers - I'm the same as Joe, I've got into the habit of using an AP just as a safety precaution. I use Hydro Solutions and an AP is still needed for polypropylene but I just use it on all plastics to be sure.
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  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 9,404Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    You need AP with Aqualac sometimes. We use NanoChem AP then Aqualac on polypropylene parts all day long. Anything blasted? We just shoot Aqualac direct.
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  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 9,404Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    We have had fantastic Adhesion w Aqualac direct to ABS and nylon. And some others, but those two I remember for sure.
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  • TrayersSlayersTrayersSlayers Posts: 257Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 2017
    @IceMaster  Im going to chop up a hdpe blue barrel sat use 103 and blast then 103 then aqualac. Ill post results to see if you need a AP still with HDPE. With aqualac of course.
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  • TroubleTrouble Posts: 343Member ✭✭✭
    PPG Sx103 is a plastics cleaner. I have used and tested just about every no flame treatment out there they all peeled off eventually. I am testing the following method for the last few months and it is holding as good as flaming. Degrease with wax and grease. Blast I use glass media. Scrub with red pad and 3m scuff it. Wipe with PPG SX103. Follow instructions close I do it twice. Spray pliogrip TPO adhesion promoter. I can only find this AP in a spray can. Be careful not to make any runs with this AP it is vey hard to sand smooth. I let it sit for 15 min then hit it with epoxy and base coat. So far no issues but only time will tell. I am trying to weigh the cost and time involved looks like I am leaning towards a shrink fast gun to speed things up and go back to flaming. I have talked to a few plastic paint companies and flaming is a proven method. 
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  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 9,404Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    Trouble said:

    PPG Sx103 is a plastics cleaner. I have used and tested just about every no flame treatment out there they all peeled off eventually. I am testing the following method for the last few months and it is holding as good as flaming. Degrease with wax and grease. Blast I use glass media. Scrub with red pad and 3m scuff it. Wipe with PPG SX103. Follow instructions close I do it twice. Spray pliogrip TPO adhesion promoter. I can only find this AP in a spray can. Be careful not to make any runs with this AP it is vey hard to sand smooth. I let it sit for 15 min then hit it with epoxy and base coat. So far no issues but only time will tell. I am trying to weigh the cost and time involved looks like I am leaning towards a shrink fast gun to speed things up and go back to flaming. I have talked to a few plastic paint companies and flaming is a proven method. 

    Thank you for this! I want to test a few things as well. For a production run of HDPE parts? I still think a shrink fast gun and isopropyl followed by quality AP will be most cost effective. I have no actual testing yet tho. Of course flames being used in a separate area of the shop, but cost/part is huge on production.
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  • onehitwonderonehitwonder Posts: 2,740Member, Business Ninja ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hdpe will eventually sweat out release agents unless it has been flame treated, regardless of what you put on it. It may grip for a week or two, but as soon as it is exposed to heat/sunlight for a period of time, it will sweat, and pop off tape, paint, bondo, etc. flame treat hdpe ALWAYS. That being said, OHW will adhere to every other material without primer or AP - that's how we designed it
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  • onehitwonderonehitwonder Posts: 2,740Member, Business Ninja ✭✭✭✭✭
    Like @Trouble says, that PPG stuff is a cleaner/ surface tension alterer, not a substitute for flaming
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  • IceMasterIceMaster Posts: 1,333Member ✭✭✭✭
    onehitwonder said:

    Hdpe will eventually sweat out release agents unless it has been flame treated, regardless of what you put on it. It may grip for a week or two, but as soon as it is exposed to heat/sunlight for a period of time, it will sweat, and pop off tape, paint, bondo, etc. flame treat hdpe ALWAYS.

    Not according to a local automotive restore place. They assured me that flame treating has never been a part of their procedure and they do show cars. Seems like this scenario has so many different answers, according to who you ask. Makes it confusing

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  • onehitwonderonehitwonder Posts: 2,740Member, Business Ninja ✭✭✭✭✭
    For HDPE it will be. There will never be a chemical that will bond to a plastic made to be chemical resistant - I bet that PPG product is actually contained in an HDPE vessel. I don't know of many show cars or regular cars that have HDPE/ LDPE parts - HDPE is generally hard hats, mx parts, soda bottles, quads, etc. Items that need to be chemical resistant

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  • TroubleTrouble Posts: 343Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 2017
    Car parts are not HDPE. Most car guys no nothing about our process. 
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  • TrayersSlayersTrayersSlayers Posts: 257Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 2017
    Ok said the heck with the barrel. Went to the good old homedepot. Got a hdpe hard hat. I wiped it, blasted it, will be wiping one more time tomorrow as i ran out of time tonight. And paint with Aqualac then dip. 
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  • TrayersSlayersTrayersSlayers Posts: 257Member ✭✭✭
    onehitwonder said:
    Hdpe will eventually sweat out release agents unless it has been flame treated, regardless of what you put on it. It may grip for a week or two, but as soon as it is exposed to heat/sunlight for a period of time, it will sweat, and pop off tape, paint, bondo, etc. flame treat hdpe ALWAYS. That being said, OHW will adhere to every other material without primer or AP - that's how we designed it
    It says in the description of sx103 its for mold release agents? 
    Iv
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  • NotSoFastNotSoFast Posts: 3,258Member, Moderator El Moderator
    TrayersSlayers said:


    onehitwonder said:

    Hdpe will eventually sweat out release agents unless it has been flame treated, regardless of what you put on it. It may grip for a week or two, but as soon as it is exposed to heat/sunlight for a period of time, it will sweat, and pop off tape, paint, bondo, etc. flame treat hdpe ALWAYS. That being said, OHW will adhere to every other material without primer or AP - that's how we designed it

    It says in the description of sx103 its for mold release agents? 
    Iv

    True...on the surface. But the thing is that the mold release agent isn't only on the surface of the part. It's mixed in with the molten plastic before it's molded. Heat brings it to the surface, thus the flame treating to remove it. These chemical agents may remove it from the surface, but how can they wick it out of the plastic itself? It may pass an adhesion test today, but what about after the hard hat or other part is subjected to heat down the line and more release agent makes it's way to the surface under your paint? It's why flame treating takes several passes, cleaning with alcohol between each pass. It keeps coming to the surface. You flame treat until it stops coming back up.
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  • onehitwonderonehitwonder Posts: 2,740Member, Business Ninja ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thank you
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  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 9,404Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    This is exactly what I've always wondered. HDPE is the only plastic I flame treat. The other chemical prep products work fantastic on Polypropylene. The argument is that "auto body shops never flame treat!" But if they're not using HDPE or LDPE parts, that's not going to matter.
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  • Archer0545Archer0545 Posts: 806Member ✭✭✭
    Just as an FYI, Soda bottles are made of PET and not HDPE.
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  • K2ConceptsK2Concepts Posts: 13,342Administrator El Jefe
    The more you know...
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  • onehitwonderonehitwonder Posts: 2,740Member, Business Ninja ✭✭✭✭✭
    Archer0545 said:

    Just as an FYI, Soda bottles are made of PET and not HDPE.

    Depending on the manufacturer- either way, it's a polyethylene product, which is where the chemical resistance comes in
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  • TrayersSlayersTrayersSlayers Posts: 257Member ✭✭✭
    Well here she is. Wipe with ppg sx103, blast 80grit 80psi, wipe down one more time, nanochem AP, Aqualac, then dip. Slightly under activated had some fade and around the rim. But 1st hard hat and still getting the hang of liquid concepts custom films. Gloss clear layed out flat no fish eying from any sort of leach through. The process works. But don't take my word for it try it for yourself and post your results. Some guys use Transtar epoxy prime instead of AP that seems to work well also.  All I asked was to give the process a shot before tearing it down. @K2Concepts Jim you imput is always Appreciated. 
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  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 9,404Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    Yeah see... here's the thing. With what you did, yes it will stick. Just degreasing with alcohol, blasting and NanoChem AP would work for that. The question is how well and for how long. On a custom project part, it's not like you can do cross hatch tests on it without destroying all the work you have into it.

    I've still yet to see someone do a thorough test on anything. Not even flame testing then leaving it in the sun. I'm going to have to set up a test. Guess I'm going to be picking up some hardhats next time I'm at Lowe's. LOL! I'll start a separate discussion and I would love some input on how to set it up and which products to test. I figure beginning of summer is a perfect time so I can leave stuff out in the sun. Stay tuned.
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