Opening a Hydrographics Business Step by Step

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  • NotSoFastNotSoFast Posts: 3,207Member, Moderator El Moderator
    Maybe start a part 2 of this project so it doesn't take so long to load?
  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 9,259Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    edited October 2016
    Download Photoscape and use their Batch Editor. There is a resize option, and you can do all of them at once, and they all save to an output folder. I usually select something like "Auto Correct: Middle" and "Adjust the longer length to 800 pixels" Plenty good enough for most photos, and drops the image size down to about 200kb each, instead of 3-4Mb each like current phones capture.

    http://download.cnet.com/PhotoScape/3000-2192_4-10703122.html
  • K2ConceptsK2Concepts Posts: 13,146Administrator El Jefe
    Actually, I was just waiting for the software to load another page...and it just did so we are good to go...lol...

    Started assembling the booths yesterday...all scrubbed clean by my son...he is working his tail off...







  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 9,259Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    Time for some Prime Coatings Booth coat!!!
  • K2ConceptsK2Concepts Posts: 13,146Administrator El Jefe

    Time for some Prime Coatings Booth coat!!!

    Trying to get the weasels at Brutal Hydro to send us some...
  • Dinnetta_gobigbrainDinnetta_gobigbrain Posts: 196Member, Business Ninja ✭✭✭
    $775/a month in rent?!! I thought maybe you forgot a 2 or a 3 behind that $ sign! 
  • Dinnetta_gobigbrainDinnetta_gobigbrain Posts: 196Member, Business Ninja ✭✭✭
    And yes, it is costly to move especially when you have to do such improvements. When we moved into this building, we were at about $12k for buildout, electrical, booth fan, metal work, etc. It wasn't cheap!
  • LibertymanLibertyman Posts: 944Member, Business Ninja ✭✭✭✭

    So right at around $8,000 out of pocket so far...and I did all the electrical, airlines and water lines myself...I can only imagine what that would cost someone who does not know how to do that kind of stuff...At least another $10,000 I imagine...

    Really nice job Jim...... quick question for you. I see you used copper with soldered fittings for your air lines, is that type M, or type L... I didn't know you could use that for air lines.
    Was it over all cheaper then black pipe or poly? Also the city lets allows you to do all your own electrical, and plumbing work?

  • K2ConceptsK2Concepts Posts: 13,146Administrator El Jefe
    edited October 2016
    @Libertyman I used Type M which has a rating of 300 PSI with Solder...since there is no longer and "Tin/Lead" solder that is legal (that I know of)...there is all kinds of answers and arguments about the "burst" strength ratings being affected by the solder fittings but the bottom line it that your compressor should kick out at 140 PSI or so...and the minimum rating I have heard is 150 for soldered fittings. That being said? We have been operating our system for years with soldered fittings and Type M copper. It's economical, light weight, easy to work with, it will not corrode or break down so it's safe and long lasting, it's recyclable and it's got a heat transfer rating 100 times better than PEX or any other PE product if you look at the thermal conductivity values. However, in practicality? I have heard that the thermal conductivity is negligible. With that in mind? I still think it is the best material for the job and it works flawlessly in our system tests so far. We have been checking the drains daily and still have yet to see a single drop of water. I am sure that will change when we get into full blown production but I am pleased as punch with how it has turned out so far.

    As for being cheaper than black pipe or poly? I don't know about cost wise but $15.81 a 10' section seemed more than fair to me. We have around 300' in the shop and 100 ' of that was the heat exchanger I built. So figure in another $200 in fittings on the high end?I think $600 or $700 for the kind of system we got was a fair price...And black pipe has rust and corrosion problems later down the line. PEX looks good inside the walls but I don't care for the "wavy" look outside the walls and I am not fully convinced of the thermal exchange rating. I know lots of guys use it and love it but I guess I am old fashioned that way...

    Now for the city allowing us to do our own work? Yes and no...if I wanted to do my own work I had to submit a bunch of forms...so I just asked my buddy if it came to that? If I could use his license...just pay him to pull the permits...but we went WAY overkill with the electrical and air lines. Everything is strapped nice and tight, oversized piping and wires, 600v rated disconnects and switches. SO if they nail me on the permits? They won't nail me on the installation...

    Sometimes it is easier to plead ignorance than to ask for permission...
    Post edited by K2Concepts on
  • LibertymanLibertyman Posts: 944Member, Business Ninja ✭✭✭✭
    @K2Concepts ...Well said on the inspectors... I deal with their b.s. every day... seems like it's the game that's played over and over. Your project looks like it coming along nicely. Very nice job I might say. Your attention to detail is top notch. Thanks for the detailed answer on the copper piping. When you are all set you should do a video tour of your set up, I'am sure everyone would love to see a walk thru.
  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 9,259Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    @Libertyman I have black pipe in my shop now, and there are advantages and disadvantages...

    Disadvantages of Black Pipe:
    - Rust (I get dirty air and I have to put a coarse filter first at all my drops to catch the bulk of it)
    - Threading is a pain to get to exact lengths when you need it
    - Have to plan ahead (hard to splice in the middle of a 10' section after it's up in place). Install lots of unions and Tee's instead of elbows, so you can always come off there later.

    Advantages
    - Cheaper than copper
    - Easy if using full lengths and don't have to thread
    - Still exchanges heat well
  • K2ConceptsK2Concepts Posts: 13,146Administrator El Jefe
    @Libertyman Yes, I plan on doing some very in depth videos...
  • Crusader_CoatingsCrusader_Coatings Posts: 266Member, Business Ninja ✭✭✭
    Had the little man making laps today. He was content....
    pipefitter coming Friday and electrician coming Saturday. Carpenter coming Wednesday to set a wall in between mixing room and compressor. I really dislike hearing that thing run. Have one more quote coming on paint booths and air make up unit before we pull the trigger on that. Progress is slower than I had hoped but we are taking the extra time to make everything right. 
  • K2ConceptsK2Concepts Posts: 13,146Administrator El Jefe

    @Libertyman I have black pipe in my shop now, and there are advantages and disadvantages...

    Disadvantages of Black Pipe:
    - Rust (I get dirty air and I have to put a coarse filter first at all my drops to catch the bulk of it)
    - Threading is a pain to get to exact lengths when you need it
    - Have to plan ahead (hard to splice in the middle of a 10' section after it's up in place). Install lots of unions and Tee's instead of elbows, so you can always come off there later.

    Advantages
    - Cheaper than copper
    - Easy if using full lengths and don't have to thread
    - Still exchanges heat well

    @MidOhioHydrographics Joe are you sure it's cheaper? I shopped and our supplier was at $17.39 for 3/4" x 10' for black iron pipe and only $15.81 for 3/4" x 10' of Type M copper...Same with 90's...black 3/4" x 3/4" is $2.07 and copper 3/4" x 3/4" is $1.38...useless information for someone who already has a system in place BUT helpful for someone considering it...

    @Libertyman I had to edit my post about Type L...we actually ran Type M...but the specifications I posted are correct...I just mixed up the types...
  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 9,259Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    Damn. Was just at Lowes and forgot to check. I'll try to remember next to I'm there.
  • WileECoyoteWileECoyote Posts: 6,230Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    I ran type M for all my drops in the main shop. I can say there were probably 500 solder joints on all the drops we put in using Type M. We had a 200x300 shop with a 3" loop in the ceiling the was "low Pressure" (80 PSI) and a 2" "High Pressure" line (120 PSI). We had air audits done, We NEVER had a leak or burst in 19 years, any money that it costs you upfront is offset by air loss in no time. Compressed air leaks are EXPENSIVE, but you never see it till you have an audit. Depending on how much you use your system, ONE airleak, 1/64" in diameter could cost you $40 annually... I assure you, when using black iron you are going to have more than one that size.

    Some of the costs associated with this information is for a company delivering pressurized air for 24/7, but I did calculations on our system and calculated savings over a typical "Black Iron" system... and we justified a brand new 75HP rotary screw with VFD unloading with the money saved over ten years... in SAVINGS
  • LibertymanLibertyman Posts: 944Member, Business Ninja ✭✭✭✭
    @K2Concepts , Jim did you run 1/2" or 3/4 on that copper
  • LibertymanLibertyman Posts: 944Member, Business Ninja ✭✭✭✭
    @MidOhioHydrographics , we've got black pipe now, but have a small leak somewhere, like @WileECoyote mentioned, so considering changing it out to copper
  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 9,259Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator

    ONE airleak, 1/64" in diameter could cost you $40 annually... I assure you, when using black iron you are going to have more than one that size.

    Some of the costs associated with this information is for a company delivering pressurized air for 24/7, but I did calculations on our system and calculated savings over a typical "Black Iron" system... and we justified a brand new 75HP rotary screw with VFD unloading with the money saved over ten years... in SAVINGS

    That is insane... Just doesn't compute to me, yet there it is. Definitely will look into upgrading eventually. Starting a new thread w/ some questions.... @WileECoyote
  • SreynoldsSreynolds Posts: 1,350Member ✭✭✭✭
    We traveled all over the country installing conveyor systems. I was the guy on the crew that ran all the plumbing to the system... In all that time we only ran one job with black iron, and man was it a pain. Although there were filters and dryers the pipes still rusted. We went back to the same place a couple years later to replace valves and other things that were full of rust....

    Copper imo is the only way to go....
  • K2ConceptsK2Concepts Posts: 13,146Administrator El Jefe

    @K2Concepts , Jim did you run 1/2" or 3/4 on that copper

    3/4" through the whole loop and all the way up to the filter driers...then reduced to 1/2"...The only reason I did not go with 1" is because they don't carry it at Home Depot...lol...so fittings and everything else would have been a pain...but I left an area of the pipe open if we get a blast cabinet that demands more than the system can provide...I will just go straight off the line before the loop of the shop....and watch when we blast...I don't think it will come to that but I have a backup plan...

    And yes the first thing we noticed when we brought the compressor online was the fact that it did not cycle anywhere near as much even in standby mode...now we had a pretty tight system but the regulators still leaked...so now that we have new ones and an even more leak free system? I am sure the savings will be there...and yes I am convinced that copper is the way to go...
  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 9,259Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    Sreynolds said:


    Copper imo is the only way to go....


    ...and yes I am convinced that copper is the way to go...


    I'm becoming more convinced by the minute...
  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 9,259Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    edited November 2016
    Here's pricing breakdown examples from my local Menard's (all 10' sections)

    Size Copper (M) Black Pipe
    3/4" $11.44 $10.82
    1" $23.98 $17.20
    1.5" $43.47 $26.59
    2" $79.99 $34.98

    Elbows
    3/4" $0.77 $0.99
    1" $3.69 $1.79
    1.5" $11.89 $5.49
    2" $11.99 $8.49

    I'd say negligible in the smaller sizes, about 50% savings as you get larger. Black pipe is cheaper at 3/4" only, then quite a bit cheaper from there on. Very strange.

    Edited w/ Elbows @K2Concepts
    Post edited by MidOhioHydrographics on
  • K2ConceptsK2Concepts Posts: 13,146Administrator El Jefe
    Check fittings also...weird because that's the opposite of what we got...lol...Maybe Home Depot owns more copper mines than Menards....
  • SreynoldsSreynolds Posts: 1,350Member ✭✭✭✭
    I would expect copper to be higher... we also ran a lot of aluminum air line for a company one time. It was easy to work with also, I just don't know if I liked the fittings or not....
  • WileECoyoteWileECoyote Posts: 6,230Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    @Sreynolds I have run aluminum as well, a system made by Parker. I also did not like the fittings, but I put that system in in 2003, and it is still going strong without 1 failure. It is easy to add drops too, but those fittings are expensive, and it requires some tools to work with.


    And yes the first thing we noticed when we brought the compressor online was the fact that it did not cycle anywhere near as much even in standby mode...now we had a pretty tight system but the regulators still leaked...so now that we have new ones and an even more leak free system? I am sure the savings will be there.

    Its amazing what eliminating just a small amount of waste will do.
  • SreynoldsSreynolds Posts: 1,350Member ✭✭✭✭
    As far as I know @WileECoyote , the aluminum system we put in never has failed. Anything new always seems odd I guess....

    At the end of the day copper would be my choice....
  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 9,259Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    The company I purchased my compressor from also deals in Airnet compressed air piping systems. Basically an aluminum tube coated in a blue polymer. Supposed to be fantastic. Probably would go with this if I ever actually add my addition to the back of the shop.

    http://www.aluminumairpipe.com/?gclid=CjwKEAjw-uDABRDPz4-0tp6T6lMSJADNoyPb7JyIWqtbIT28l4_TyT9TcDbF45u_Xw0RhXhCTv1zNBoCY1Pw_wcB
  • NotSoFastNotSoFast Posts: 3,207Member, Moderator El Moderator

    The company I purchased my compressor from also deals in Airnet compressed air piping systems. Basically an aluminum tube coated in a blue polymer. Supposed to be fantastic. Probably would go with this if I ever actually add my addition to the back of the shop.

    http://www.aluminumairpipe.com/?gclid=CjwKEAjw-uDABRDPz4-0tp6T6lMSJADNoyPb7JyIWqtbIT28l4_TyT9TcDbF45u_Xw0RhXhCTv1zNBoCY1Pw_wcB

    Looks similar to the stuff they advertise on those weekend do it yourself car and truck shows. Supposed to be good plus easy to install.

  • K2ConceptsK2Concepts Posts: 13,146Administrator El Jefe
    Well here is the downside to the "send us your drawings"...sometimes, unless the equipment is all in place, you will need to make adjustments to the design...trust me on this one, you will be making adjustments...so the win goes to copper if you can run down to Home Depot or Menards and make an adjustment on the fly...I still gotta go with copper because of that fact alone...the last thing I want to be doing is waiting around for a fitting or two to fly in while every minute I am down is costing me exponential amounts of money because we are offline...
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