Print is giving tainted look on transparent plastic speedshapes — K2Forums.com

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Print is giving tainted look on transparent plastic speedshapes

chuubabachuubaba Posts: 110Member ✭✭
edited July 2017 in Films and Activators
Experimentation with clear plastic speedshapes. The irregular shaped chunk was dipped in home made activator, no AP no clear coat while the round shaped was done with chinese activator and has two coats of chinese clear coat acrylic lacquer. Gun 1.5 @ 15 PSI, water temp 24c, two slow passes, air tank installed with air **badword** oil filter. The tainted film can be distinguished from clear plastic surface in the upper left corner of first pic. same plastic in both. I suspect the activator to cause this (??) and hope addition of any chemical substance can eliminate this problem. What is lacking in my activators

Post edited by chuubaba on
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Comments

  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 8,923Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    If it gets wet does it become more clear? If so, your clear topcoat will make it look more clear also
  • chuubabachuubaba Posts: 110Member ✭✭
    edited July 2017
    Just tried another transparent speedshape, film from different manufacturer, four slow passes, home made activator, other settings same, totally distorted



  • chuubabachuubaba Posts: 110Member ✭✭
    @MidOhioHydrographics Yes it becomes more clear. Also the second pic is taken by placing the speedshape on white screen and it is unrecognizable (although i like the distorted pattern it formed).
  • chuubabachuubaba Posts: 110Member ✭✭
    edited July 2017


    Here is a pic of it while it was damp. I can't see the tainted film problem in this piece but look at the destruction. Any advice what i need to add to my home made activator?
    And now that it is dry i can scratch the print off with nails. Coming off in powder form.
  • WileECoyoteWileECoyote Posts: 5,854Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    Unfortunately, you won't get alot of help with activator questions here. We are spoiled in the states.
  • chuubabachuubaba Posts: 110Member ✭✭
    @WileECoyote that's understandable. I am spoiled here with my home made. Then lets ask if tainted film, as seen in very first picture, is a problem or a part of the process and is cured by clear coat?
  • chuubabachuubaba Posts: 110Member ✭✭
    With white undercoat
  • BEMOTORSPORTSBEMOTORSPORTS Posts: 177Member ✭✭
    has pictured in the first the film.no clear cloat would fix that im know expert has im learning theough this forum so i can not even begin to say the problem rather if its activator or what but i can honeatly say what i see clear coat will not fix that issue from what ik or understand i would say u over acticated that spot witch cuases it to run
  • BEMOTORSPORTSBEMOTORSPORTS Posts: 177Member ✭✭
    are ypu useing an aresol?
  • studebakerstudebaker Posts: 2,842Member, Business Ninja ✭✭✭✭✭
    Your homemade activator has too much acetone in it. It is too aggressively attacking the ink and evaporating off too fast. Since you've already added 10% Xylene, just add a little Butyl Cellosolve.
  • chuubabachuubaba Posts: 110Member ✭✭

    are ypu useing an aresol?

    @studebaker I used a spraygun
  • chuubabachuubaba Posts: 110Member ✭✭
    @studbaker This the result after adding the advised ingredient.
  • chuubabachuubaba Posts: 110Member ✭✭
    The ink color is fading. Addition or removal of what ingredient can prevent this.
  • chuubabachuubaba Posts: 110Member ✭✭
  • studebakerstudebaker Posts: 2,842Member, Business Ninja ✭✭✭✭✭
    @chuubaba The addition of Butyl cellosolve was to temper the aggressiveness of your mixture which in a small way does help with color retention. Color retention is a function of several different things happening at the same time. One small part is the speed of ink dissolution with the activator formula. Two is the expansion of the PVA film as it hydrates. The more the film expands, the lighter the pattern appears because of more base coat color showing through.

    That can be remedied in two ways. Some folks adjust the apparent color of the pattern by adjusting their water temperature. the hotter it is the faster the PVA film hydrates and expands. So when they dip a the formulaic 60 seconds time point in its hydration cycle, the pattern appears lighter. When they lower the temperature and dip at 60 seconds, the pattern appears darker, because the film hasn't expanded as much.

    You don't have to adjust the temperature for color retention, the timing of the application of the activator to the film at the right time can help with your color problem. When the film is laid on the water, it starts wrinkling up at the start of the hydration process and then starts to flatten back out. (this process happens faster when the water is hotter). When it flattens back out is the time to apply the activator. then dwell for approximately 15-20 seconds for the ink to fully melt and dip your object.

    In your pictures above, you are over activated (sort of). The ink is starting to "pool" after it has melted. "Pooling" is where the ink is melted so much that it is flowing together with it's neighboring color and leaving the ink pigments pooled in the middle of the droplet and leaving clear edges around the droplet of activator. This can be remedied by using a little less activator or use the same amount of activator, but less dwell time before dipping.

    The dots in the pictures are from trapped air, NOT underactivation.
  • chuubabachuubaba Posts: 110Member ✭✭
    @studebaker why is color fading ?
  • studebakerstudebaker Posts: 2,842Member, Business Ninja ✭✭✭✭✭
    @chuubaba Interesting... Was the answer too involved and complicated to make sense? I am truly sorry.... Maybe you could re-read it one more time and it will make more sense. There are so many things that affect color retention that I was trying to fully answer your question so you could decide what parameters apply to your situation.
  • chuubabachuubaba Posts: 110Member ✭✭
    @studebaker on 24C water temp and one slow pass the film will activate to gloss but will not let the part dip through it. Two slow passes will give the depicted result. If i do more then either the border tape will give way to molten film or there will be large holes as the part comes out of tank.
  • chuubabachuubaba Posts: 110Member ✭✭
    @studebaker Soaked it for >5 minutes at 24C but no relief. After changing gun settings (50 PSI) am able to spray fine sufficient to make it glass without pooling but now the PVA film wont dissolve and my activator will evaporate after few seconds as i can see the film turn to sand within 10 seconds.
  • studebakerstudebaker Posts: 2,842Member, Business Ninja ✭✭✭✭✭
    @chuubaba Now I see. Maybe. Your activator formula is evaporating way too fast. You need something to slow down the evaporation process. It sounds like you are using straight lacquer thinner. That won't work for the reason you just described. Xylene will only work just so much to slow down the evaporation. Start over on your activator formula... Use a 2k paint reducer formulated for hot weather, and then start adding Xylene in 5% increments until you feel comfortable with the results. Also, if you can soak the PVA film for 5 minutes at 24C, without it falling apart by then, something else is causing your problems... It should have passed its usable life at three minutes at 24C....

    There is another experiment for you... How about with the formula you have now, at 24C make a fast pass at two minutes (1 minute at 30C) and then a slow pass 20 seconds later and dip within 15 seconds after that.

    But as recommended by the highly experienced forum members, try to buy preformulated activator, it will take the headache out of your adventures.
  • chuubabachuubaba Posts: 110Member ✭✭
    edited August 2017
    The 2k i am using is for automotive paints and among most expensive in domestic market, The other product is dirt cheap non branded but gives most amazing results with other user without addition of anything but average results with me. Also the films i have work with shiny side up and will not flat no matter what until activated. Further the zylene comes in drums and is mucus yellow unlike the crystal transparent we see in videos. Further more as i spray the formula i see some oily substance floating on the film and on water surface around. (adding zylene has reduced this but it still exists).

  • K2ConceptsK2Concepts Posts: 12,753Administrator El Jefe
    Shiny side up is NOT the way to tell if a film is going into the water correctly...wet your thumb and first finger and then pinch the film...which ever side sticks to you? Is the side that goes into the water...
  • chuubabachuubaba Posts: 110Member ✭✭
    @K2Concepts i always do as you said. If i place it the other way it rips apart and sinks within seconds.
  • chuubabachuubaba Posts: 110Member ✭✭
    @K2Concepts @studebaker tried mixing zylene with the above thinner/reducer and the other activator in separate experiments. Completely failed to tame the reducer/ thinner hence given up on it. With the activator available locally adding 60% zylene produced best result but the PVA would not liquefy enough to let the object dip through. A 50 50 ratio taking 5 slow tic-toc passes will dissolve the PVA sufficiently but show under-activation and error in judgment would cause more over spray leading to cracked pattern and reaction with base. Tried 55 to 45 ratio also but issue remains entirely with judgment causing blemishes. I wonder if any other ingredient can be added to dissolve the PVA with less spray. Heating water is not a option owing to high costs.
  • studebakerstudebaker Posts: 2,842Member, Business Ninja ✭✭✭✭✭
    AhHa! There is the problem! @chuubaba For some reason, you are wrongly assuming that the Activator melts/softens the PVA.

    WATER melts the PVA, ACTIVATOR melts the ink. There are TWO separate processes going on here. Not being able to push through the film means that haven't given the film enough hydration time. The hotter the water the faster it hydrates. All your formulations for you homebrew activator is for naught if you don't give the film to hydrate to its fully softened state.

    When you put the film on the water and it " rips apart and sinks within seconds" it's because the film is pre-hydrated from the humidity in the air. By the time it gets laid on the water, it's already past the right stage for passing the object through, even before you can apply the activator to melt the ink. You are essentially changing the activator formula to try to melt the ink from the back side.

    @K2Concepts has posted a video showing the "cracks" in the film when placing the film upside down on the water. That is what you are describing in the above query.

    Dry your film, and place it on the water ink side up first, before you do any more experimenting with your activator formula. This is almost literally a case of flogging a dead horse....
  • chuubabachuubaba Posts: 110Member ✭✭
    edited August 2017
    @studebaker the ink side (one that does not stick with wet pinch) is up without iota of doubt and if i lay it on water ink side down then it rips and sinks. This is the result at 60-40 ratio. The film did not let the object dip through despite lengthy soak time. The knife was rolled.



    Post edited by chuubaba on
  • chuubabachuubaba Posts: 110Member ✭✭
    edited August 2017
    Here are few dips with my home brew. Looks much better except for the drying time. I touched a part after almost an hour and the (base paint??) was still wet .

  • NotSoFastNotSoFast Posts: 3,147Member, Moderator El Moderator
    Yeah, that's one of the potential problems with using an unproven activator. You don't know how it will affect the paint. What base coat did you use and was it dry to the touch before dipping?
  • WileECoyoteWileECoyote Posts: 5,854Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    That ain't gonna be good...
  • chuubabachuubaba Posts: 110Member ✭✭
    @NotSoFast Thermoplastic acrylic resin paint in aerosol was used as base.
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