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Testing Flame Treatment Alternatives

MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 8,288Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
edited June 6 in The X Factor
Ok, here's what I figure. I'm going to buy some HDPE hard hats and see what works and what doesn't. That simple. My idea is to use flame treatment as the standard. I have no dog in this fight. I don't coat any HDPE parts for production, I'm not looking or hoping for a shortcut, I don't sell any paints or products. Here's what I want to do. I will buy some hard hats, but I want anyone interested to send me a sample of their products they want me to test. I'll be happy to buy something locally if it isn't crazy and is highly requested, but I don't want to spend hundreds of dollars either. I figure I'll test each product/process against flame treatment and flame + Adhesion promoter on the same hardhat, allow to fully cure, then cross hatch at intervals and post results. Here is what I'm thinking I'll start with. Add comments below for other things you'd like me to test. I'll start with what I have already in house from various suppliers. Each hat will have 1/4 flame treatment only, 1/4 flame + NanoChem AP, half no flame treatment and one or two test items on the non-flamed quarters. All hats will be wiped with simple isopropyl before anything else to remove surface oils.

What your thoughts on a clearcoat? Should I clear all of the test pieces with something or leave them with just paint?

@onehitwonder @LCHP @HydroSolutions @Dinnetta_gobigbrain
I have OHW paint, Low Country paint and Hydro Solutions paints in house that were all sent as free samples or to be used at the training. Would any of you want your paints tested? I would like to also test the plastic prep system by Big Brain if they would be willing to offer up a sample. I will follow all instructions meticulously and use whatever paint they recommend for their system. (See example on hard hat 3 below).

The plan is to let everything cure for at least a week, then do my first cross hatch test. I can then put them all in my oven at 100 deg. for a few hours (or however long you all think?) and cross hatch again. I figure 100 deg is perfectly reasonable. If that doesn't cause any issues, next day I'll bump it up to 150 deg and see what happens. Looks like melting point for HDPE is 248 to 356 deg F, so I should be safe.

Are there any other products that anyone would like me to test or am I missing any glaring problems with my test design? @WileECoyote @K2Concepts

So far here is what I can come up with:

Hard hat 1: Aqualac 35 Series
Q1: Flame + Aqualac
Q2: Flame + AP + Aqualac
Q3: Aqualac Only
Q4: AP + Aqualac

Hard Hat 2: Blasting (80 grit AO)
Q1: Flame + Blast + Aqualac
Q2: Flame + Blast + AP + Aqualac
Q3: Blast + Aqualac
Q4: Blast + AP + Aqualac

Hard hat 3: Bulldog Abrasive Prep and Clean
Q1: Flame + Aqualac
Q2: Flame + AP + Aqualac
Q3: Bulldog Prep and Clean + Aqualac
Q4: Bulldog Prep and Clean + AP + Aqualac

Hard hat 4: HydroSolutions Paint (awaiting confirmation of approval)
Q1: Flame + HydroSolutions
Q2: Flame + AP + HydroSolutions
Q3: HydroSolutions Only
Q4: AP + HydroSolutions

Hard hat 5: OHW Paint
Q1: Flame + OHW
Q2:
Q3: OHW Only
Q4:

Thoughts?
Post edited by MidOhioHydrographics on

Comments

  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 8,288Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    I also have Bulldog Abrasive Prep and Clean I can test? Forgot I had that.
  • dirtbagdavdirtbagdav Posts: 60Member
    Following. 

    What AP will you be using with the Aqualac?
  • WileECoyoteWileECoyote Posts: 5,361Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    I am guessing he has the PolyPro Primer from PC in house. He mentioned bulldog which is a pretty common one everyone has access too.
  • WileECoyoteWileECoyote Posts: 5,361Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    Obviously keep in mind (anyone reading this… cause Joe already knows this) that this is just preliminary information gathering. YOU all should run similar tests after getting the information, knowing that even the same type of plastic can act differently, depending on many circumstances out of your control. Any time you have a significant run of parts you should test a bit. ALWAYS be trying to optimize your process.
  • norcalfranknorcalfrank Posts: 712Member ✭✭✭
    I understand that you want the products to cure, but it seem like a week is a long time seeing as most don't have that much
    time for whatever they are using as a prep and base.
  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 8,288Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    edited June 6
    @dirtbagdav I will be using NanoChem Adhesion Promoter because that's what we use daily under Aqualac. I know it's compatible and works perfectly over degreased polypropylene parts. And I buy it in drums, so price is low.

    @norcalfrank I was informed by Marc Devaud that an adhesion test shouldn't be performed until around 7 days cure time. It's not so much about matching what a given person would do in their shop, but to give all coatings the best chance for adhesion. If I find something that works on these hard hats? The next hard hat will receive that treatment and head out the door with confidence as soon as it can be handled. Also, I assume nobody leaves a finished part in their shop until 100% full cure has been reached. This could be even 2 weeks after clear is applied. I always provide "Care and Use" instructions for Hydro and Cerakote work. The Hydro version states to give the coatings 30 days to cure before being put into use. It can be handled before then, but any damage within that time isn't covered since the coatings won't be at their full strength.

    As Trevor mentioned, if you get a contract with a significant run of HDPE parts? You still need to test yourself.

    This is the bulldog stuff I have on hand to try. I'll edit hat 3 with this. It's a cleaning/mold release removing/scuffing product. (Page 7) http://www.eastwood.com/images/pdf/15279_inst.pdf
  • IceMasterIceMaster Posts: 1,104Member ✭✭✭✭
    Would like to see a test done with Hydro Solutions but all of this will be interesting to see the results
  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 8,288Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    Will do! I have the paint from the training. I'll update with that as long as @HydroSolutions approves and provides any special instructions they request.
  • onehitwonderonehitwonder Posts: 2,539Member, Business Ninja ✭✭✭✭✭
    Just don't use any primer or adpro beneath OHW - our paint grip better than these products, and if something fails, I don't want it to be a part of the test
  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 8,288Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    Ok perfect. I'll eliminate that from the variables. Thanks @onehitwonder!
  • NotSoFastNotSoFast Posts: 2,979Member, Moderator El Moderator
    You also might want to do another adhesion test after the items are exposed to heat (direct sunlight for a day or so or sitting in a closed vehicle in the sun for the same amount of time) to replicate the end user actually using their items, especially hardhats. This is where most poorly or non-flame treated parts fail anyway, not the first day they are painted.
  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 8,288Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    NotSoFast said:

    You also might want to do another adhesion test after the items are exposed to heat (direct sunlight for a day or so or sitting in a closed vehicle in the sun for the same amount of time) to replicate the end user actually using their items, especially hardhats. This is where most poorly or non-flame treated parts fail anyway, not the first day they are painted.

    @NotSoFast That is the reason for using the oven. Expose to 100 deg heat for a given amount of time, then cross hatch again. That's the last part of the test. I can test hot direct sunlight also? I don't know that it would be different than the oven?
  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 8,288Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    edited June 6
    @onehitwonder do you want anything besides just OHW with and without flame treatment? Maybe a blasted area? Seven days enough cure time?
  • NotSoFastNotSoFast Posts: 2,979Member, Moderator El Moderator

    NotSoFast said:

    You also might want to do another adhesion test after the items are exposed to heat (direct sunlight for a day or so or sitting in a closed vehicle in the sun for the same amount of time) to replicate the end user actually using their items, especially hardhats. This is where most poorly or non-flame treated parts fail anyway, not the first day they are painted.

    @NotSoFast That is the reason for using the oven. Expose to 100 deg heat for a given amount of time, then cross hatch again. That's the last part of the test. I can test hot direct sunlight also? I don't know that it would be different than the oven?
    My bad. I didn't see the part about the oven. The text is small on my phone and I didn't have my glasses. :s
  • loochlooch Posts: 1,407Member ✭✭✭✭
    No offense but all this talk about alternative ways and doing tests you could if just flame treated painted dipped cleared and sent it out the door already
  • Fejery4491Fejery4491 Posts: 93Member ✭✭✭
    looch said:

    No offense but all this talk about alternative ways and doing tests you could if just flame treated painted dipped cleared and sent it out the door already

    But if it is viable to bypass flame treatment and that product can be bought affordably enough, it has potential to save enough time to be worthwhile on a production run. Plus there seems to be alot of guys claiming it's not needed, when the only test they've really done is making sure it sticks well enough to make it out the door.
  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 8,288Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    Yeah if I had one hardhat to do? Flame and done. No question. This test isn't for me. It's for everyone else. I'm just curious about the options and how they hold up.
  • WileECoyoteWileECoyote Posts: 5,361Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    @looch This is information gathering for information gathering purposes... and to illustrate to others how testing should be done, and that it SHOULD be done.
  • K2ConceptsK2Concepts Posts: 11,953Administrator El Jefe
    You aint gonna find a faster way to treat plastics than flame treating...2 or 3 step versus 1 step? And you gotta scrub the HIDE of parts with that paste and stuff...19 parts in 45 minutes and ready to go for paint? Yea you aint gonna beat that...
  • onehitwonderonehitwonder Posts: 2,539Member, Business Ninja ✭✭✭✭✭
    Nope
  • HydroSolutionsHydroSolutions Posts: 62Member ✭✭✭
    @MidOhioHydrographics sorry we had a family emergency and out of the office for a bit. Please go ahead and test! For hardhats we flame treat, then use a skim coat of PPG One Choice adhesion promoter, then do the base colour. We have another guy that doesn't use the adhesion promoter at all on hard hats.
  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 8,288Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    Sounds great! Thanks!
  • LibertymanLibertyman Posts: 687Member ✭✭✭
    @MidOhioHydrographics, thanks Joe, for taking the time for everyone to run these tests,
    As Trevor said @WileECoyote everyone should run through test like this, but it's nice to take the lead and encourage this testing
  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 8,288Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    Sorry everyone. I know I said I would do this but it's not looking like I will have much free time at my shop. I still want to, but I've been spending more time at the family's firearm business and it will likely be taking up more of my time as we move forward. I will try and get my guys to run a test at some point, but I'm just not sure when it will be.
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