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Flame Treating

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Comments

  • onehitwonderonehitwonder Posts: 2,663Member, Business Ninja ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yep - now flame from the inside and see what happens to adhesion of the paint
  • TroubleTrouble Posts: 285Member ✭✭✭
    I have been testing this process for a few month no issues till the weather heated up. I was gone for 2 weeks and just got back today I just peeled off of 2 hats zero adhesion with this method. Did a cross hatch on one I flamed over a year ago and it held. Experiment over I'm ordering a shrinkfast torch to speed up the process. Back to flaming. Like one hit wonder said heat it up and see what happens.
  • TrayersSlayersTrayersSlayers Posts: 225Member ✭✭✭
    @Trouble.
    Interesting. 
  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 8,937Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    edited June 2017
    My curiosity is just with heat from the sun since that is most likely exposure. I don't know the temp of a torch, but if it can withstand a few 90 degree direct sun days? I'll be happy with that.
  • WileECoyoteWileECoyote Posts: 5,857Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    No one wants to ruin their own hard work, but you have too to do a decent test. One of the things I like to encourage students to do when they have 4wheeler plastic is treat, and paint the underside as well... Then do some adhesion tests when finished... You would be surprised how often they are stripping down a "perfect job" because the didn't want it to peal off in a sheet three weeks down the road
  • IceMasterIceMaster Posts: 1,303Member ✭✭✭✭
    Been reading a lot about this as of late and came across this information. If it's accurate, could prove to be very helpful

    "Common polymers have a wide range of densities. So by dropping a chip of the polymer in question into a glass of water one can separate HDPE (density 0.95-0.96), LDPE (0.92-0.94)and PP (,0.92) which will float from the denser polymers which will sink in water. Recovering the chip of questionable polymer drop it into a glass of rubbing alcohol (70% isopropol which has a density of 0.92) . If the chip floats it is PP. recover your chip of plastic and next drop it into a solution of 2 parts rubbing alcohol to 1 part water to get a solution with a density of 0.946666666666666666666666667) if the chip sinks it is most likely HDPE (density >0.95) where as LDPE (density0.92 to 0.94) will float. If you are still unsure change the rubbing alcohol/water solution to a 1:1 ratio to get a density of 0.96 and the plastic chip should float if it is HDPE.



    With small chips this can be accomplished very easily starting with:

    a. a table spoon full of water for the first test

    b. two tablespoons of rubbing alcohol for the second test

    c. Mix the water and alcohol together for the third test

    d. Add another spoon full of water to the mix if you want to run the forth test to see the HDPE float proving a density between 0.946 and 0.96."
  • onehitwonderonehitwonder Posts: 2,663Member, Business Ninja ✭✭✭✭✭
    Good info right there - like I've said before, OHW will adhere to EVERY plastic/metal/ glass etc. etc. EXCEPT a PE (hdpe, mdpe, ldpe), which all require flaming. Every engineer and our chemist all agree that this is an impossible task, due to the nature and design of polyethylene
  • K2ConceptsK2Concepts Posts: 12,761Administrator El Jefe
    I flame treat any and all Poly that comes into my shop...
  • WileECoyoteWileECoyote Posts: 5,857Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    Unless you are in a production environment, why is there such resistance to doing it?
  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 8,937Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator

    Unless you are in a production environment, why is there such resistance to doing it?

    I agree. I can understand the "open flame in a solvent-rich environment" argument. Safety is always a concern. So be safe and you'll be fine.
  • ForsiForsi Posts: 164Member ✭✭✭
    I have a set of parts to do for a Harley in the shop now and noticed the faring is a PPE plastic. In speaking with others as well as a couple of paint shops I know well the consistent answer for prepping PPE has been either the PPG system (as shown earlier in this thread) or a 3-step process which basically strips the PPE finish and then applies an adhesive promoter to it. That is what I have found from both dippers and auto paint shops; in reading this thread I am now wondering if that will suffice for long term adhesion or if I do indeed need to flame treat this PPE part. Always more to learn...
  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 8,937Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    Not sure what PPE stands for. PP is polypropylene, and PE is polyethylene. Maybe PopyPropylEthylene?! :confused:
  • onehitwonderonehitwonder Posts: 2,663Member, Business Ninja ✭✭✭✭✭
  • smedlinsmedlin Posts: 1,454Member, Business Ninja ✭✭✭✭
    @Forsi, but.. is the faring "raw".. unpainted? Or already factory painted?
  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 8,937Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
  • loochlooch Posts: 1,570Member ✭✭✭✭
    Is the fairing a harley part or a cheap knockoff? There should be a hd part number on the back  i got a knock off one im doing its not the same material
  • onehitwonderonehitwonder Posts: 2,663Member, Business Ninja ✭✭✭✭✭
    smedlin said:

    @Forsi, but.. is the faring "raw".. unpainted? Or already factory painted?

    Obviously if it's already painted, you just need to prep for painting to paint, not the substrate
  • ForsiForsi Posts: 164Member ✭✭✭
    Thanks @smedlin @onehitwonder @looch . It is an actual Harley part and I got the PPE from the actual part. It has the factory paint on it so based on your answer @onehitwonder I suppose I should just sand it and prep it as normal. That makes sense now that I think about it since it has already been painted it has already been treated. Should have thought that all the way through. Thanks everyone!
  • smedlinsmedlin Posts: 1,454Member, Business Ninja ✭✭✭✭
    Yeppers, that's why i asked.

    It's probably already got clear coat on it, yes?

    Just clean it (decrease, ect), scuff it, clean it again, then paint it.
  • WileECoyoteWileECoyote Posts: 5,857Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    @smedlin is correct. if the coating is still intact, no need to remove it.
  • Gunsmith53Gunsmith53 Posts: 198Member ✭✭

    @IceMaster its not a AP you are correct. It removes the molding release agents. If you want a AP buy some nano-chem. Use a paint like aqualac, or lowcountry you wont need a AP, I know Joe still uses a AP even though he uses Aqualac just incase. 

    Removing the release agent is what I was after. The Document above answered my question about Chemical Treating. I still Flame treat too though.
  • Gunsmith53Gunsmith53 Posts: 198Member ✭✭
    NotSoFast said:



    Hdpe will eventually sweat out release agents unless it has been flame treated, regardless of what you put on it. It may grip for a week or two, but as soon as it is exposed to heat/sunlight for a period of time, it will sweat, and pop off tape, paint, bondo, etc. flame treat hdpe ALWAYS. That being said, OHW will adhere to every other material without primer or AP - that's how we designed it

    It says in the description of sx103 its for mold release agents? 
    Iv
    True...on the surface. But the thing is that the mold release agent isn't only on the surface of the part. It's mixed in with the molten plastic before it's molded. Heat brings it to the surface, thus the flame treating to remove it. These chemical agents may remove it from the surface, but how can they wick it out of the plastic itself? It may pass an adhesion test today, but what about after the hard hat or other part is subjected to heat down the line and more release agent makes it's way to the surface under your paint? It's why flame treating takes several passes, cleaning with alcohol between each pass. It keeps coming to the surface. You flame treat until it stops coming back up.

    I had never thought of that when I started looking for a Chemical treating solution. And it is a great point.
  • ImmersedFXImmersedFX Posts: 12Member
    What is the name of the Chemical thaqt supposedly takes the place of Flame treating? I know there is one, I just can't think of the name of it.

  • ImmersedFXImmersedFX Posts: 12Member
    Grease and wax solvent will remove it.
  • TroubleTrouble Posts: 285Member ✭✭✭
    I gave that SX103 process a shot I did several hard hats. I did adhesion test and it passed with flying colors until 3 months down the road in the hot july sun. I dropped the hat and there was a small nick in the brim. I pulled on it and it peel all off looked like a big wrap. zero adhesion. SX103 smell a lot like alcohol to me.
  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 8,937Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    Trouble said:

    I gave that SX103 process a shot I did several hard hats. I did adhesion test and it passed with flying colors until 3 months down the road in the hot july sun. I dropped the hat and there was a small nick in the brim. I pulled on it and it peel all off looked like a big wrap. zero adhesion. SX103 smell a lot like alcohol to me.

    Ooooooo. This has always been my concern.
  • smedlinsmedlin Posts: 1,454Member, Business Ninja ✭✭✭✭
    Trouble said:

    I gave that SX103 process a shot I did several hard hats. I did adhesion test and it passed with flying colors until 3 months down the road in the hot july sun. I dropped the hat and there was a small nick in the brim. I pulled on it and it peel all off looked like a big wrap. zero adhesion. SX103 smell a lot like alcohol to me.

    Thanks for telling us.

    Really good first hand info.
  • onehitwonderonehitwonder Posts: 2,663Member, Business Ninja ✭✭✭✭✭
    Trouble said:

    I gave that SX103 process a shot I did several hard hats. I did adhesion test and it passed with flying colors until 3 months down the road in the hot july sun. I dropped the hat and there was a small nick in the brim. I pulled on it and it peel all off looked like a big wrap. zero adhesion. SX103 smell a lot like alcohol to me.

    Been saying this all along - there is NO substitute for flame treating. Far too easy for some companies to claim there’s a magic solution in order to shift product. Believe me, if there was such a miracle chemical, we’d have had it a looooooong time ago...
  • K2ConceptsK2Concepts Posts: 12,761Administrator El Jefe

    Trouble said:

    I gave that SX103 process a shot I did several hard hats. I did adhesion test and it passed with flying colors until 3 months down the road in the hot july sun. I dropped the hat and there was a small nick in the brim. I pulled on it and it peel all off looked like a big wrap. zero adhesion. SX103 smell a lot like alcohol to me.

    Been saying this all along - there is NO substitute for flame treating. Far too easy for some companies to claim there’s a magic solution in order to shift product. Believe me, if there was such a miracle chemical, we’d have had it a looooooong time ago...
    This...
  • TrayersSlayersTrayersSlayers Posts: 225Member ✭✭✭
    @K2Concepts Marc Devaud said the other day that he had something that could and would replace flame treatment. I don't remember what he called it. I buy all my clears off of him and AP. But never could get myself to try anything else since Aqualac works so well for me. 
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