Dipping over scuffed 2k clear coat??? — K2Forums.com

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Dipping over scuffed 2k clear coat???

rcmantjkrcmantjk Posts: 98Member ✭✭
Hope this doesn't sound tooooooo ignorant to all you veteran dippers out there but can you dip directly onto a scuffed 2k clear coat or does it HAVE to have a base coat applied 1st over the properly prepared clear??? One other question...... When applying a base coat over a 2k clear......After properly preparing and scuffing a 2k clear getting ready to base coat over it, is it recommended to lay down an adhesion promoter 1st, and then the base coat, or isn't it necessary??
Thanks in advance for any help and advice..... :)
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Comments

  • WileECoyoteWileECoyote Posts: 5,673Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    You do not have to have a basecoat, but your 2K clear would have to still be in its "Open Window" typically it has to have been sprayed in the last 8-12 hours. Scuffing it does not help, adhesion promoter doesn't help. Reclear it, or use intercoat if your dip window needs to be longer than the 8-12 hours you are going to get again.

    If you are going to base right over the top of the clear, just scuff so you get a mechanical bond, no need for AP.
  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 8,707Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    If a 2k coating is completely cured, the dip will not work. It is a chemical reaction that takes place during the dip, not mechanical. So scuffing doesn't do anything. I would imagine 2k clear could be dipped to if it was within the recoat window, but I haven't tried this. If you want to dip to the existing coatings, hit it with an intercoat clear (clear binder) first and dip to that.
  • rcmantjkrcmantjk Posts: 98Member ✭✭
    @WileECoyote Looks like I'll be base coating then!!! OEM front fender off a 2004 Suzuki GSX-R 1000, I'm guessing the window on the clear has long been closed!! lol lol But just to make sure for future reference, You CAN dip to a 2k clear within a certain amount of time after it's been laid down??
  • loochlooch Posts: 1,465Member ✭✭✭✭
    Do a test piece first to make sure there compatible or use waterbased paint
  • rcmantjkrcmantjk Posts: 98Member ✭✭

    If a 2k coating is completely cured, the dip will not work. It is a chemical reaction that takes place during the dip, not mechanical. So scuffing doesn't do anything. I would imagine 2k clear could be dipped to if it was within the recoat window, but I haven't tried this. If you want to dip to the existing coatings, hit it with an intercoat clear (clear binder) first and dip to that.

    @MidOhioHydrographics So a dip will adhere fine to an intercoat, or would it be better to just go a head and lay down a regular base coat instead of messing with the intercoat?? I'm asking that because the fender is black right now so scuffing the clear on it and base coating it is no big deal really, just want to keep the black and am wondering will an intercoat effect the shade of black or not. Is an intercoat just as clear as a regular 2k clear and not effect the color shade it's going over the top of????
  • rcmantjkrcmantjk Posts: 98Member ✭✭
    looch said:

    Do a test piece first to make sure there compatible or use waterbased paint

    @looch I absolutely would if I had a 100% fully cured 2k cleared test piece available?? But I do appreciate your input. :)
  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 8,707Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    Either way is fine.
  • WileECoyoteWileECoyote Posts: 5,673Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    Yes you can dip to regular 2k clear as long as you are still in that 8-12 hour window. And intercoat clear is just as clear as regular clear. If you get 5-6 layers? Maybe not. But there is no reason to do that.

    If you have the process right, 2k clear is an easy option. Not sure about the price comparison, but the only reason to use intercoat is if you need a longer window. Intercoat is clear base for paint with no pigment. So it acts JUST like base coat, only it's clear.
  • rcmantjkrcmantjk Posts: 98Member ✭✭
    @WileECoyote Thanks so much for the info!!! As for the cost factor, I'm thinking scuffing the original clear and just base coating over that is most cost effective as the Omni clear I'll be using is quite a bit more expensive than the black base. Plus, the black base will be able to be dipped within 1/2 hr to 45 mins after it been laid down???
  • rcmantjkrcmantjk Posts: 98Member ✭✭
    @WileECoyote I'm going to have to start writing all this info down from you or I'll likely be asking the same questions again somewhere down the road!!! lol lol..... Seriously though, my memory isn't what it used to be!!!
  • WileECoyoteWileECoyote Posts: 5,673Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    Just remember 2K (clear or base) "Don't wait more than 8"
    Most paints SPECIFICALLY made for this process (OHW, Aqualac, Hydrosolutions, and Low Country... forgive me I know there are more) have a much longer "dip window". OHW and Aqualac are over a year and I think Hydrosolutions is like 30 something hours.
  • K2ConceptsK2Concepts Posts: 12,476Administrator El Jefe
    Hydrosolutions is indefinite like AquaLac...
  • WileECoyoteWileECoyote Posts: 5,673Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    From Hydrosolutions Website in the FAQ:

    What is the Dip Window for Hydrosolutions?
    45 Days. After this, the paint is no longer porus and will not allow for a seamless dip.

    So technically @K2Concepts We were both wrong.
  • K2ConceptsK2Concepts Posts: 12,476Administrator El Jefe
    Hmmm...gonna have to put that one to the test... @WileECoyote
  • WileECoyoteWileECoyote Posts: 5,673Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    I thought it was strange myself. I am sure @HydroSolutions would love to hear that it performs better than they spec as well.
  • rcmantjkrcmantjk Posts: 98Member ✭✭

    Just remember 2K (clear or base) "Don't wait more than 8"
    Most paints SPECIFICALLY made for this process (OHW, Aqualac, Hydrosolutions, and Low Country... forgive me I know there are more) have a much longer "dip window". OHW and Aqualac are over a year and I think Hydrosolutions is like 30 something hours.

    @WileECoyote No worries about the dip window. Will most likely be dipping within a few hours of laying down the base, but thanks for ALL the info you've provided me!!! :)
  • rcmantjkrcmantjk Posts: 98Member ✭✭

    If a 2k coating is completely cured, the dip will not work. It is a chemical reaction that takes place during the dip, not mechanical. So scuffing doesn't do anything. I would imagine 2k clear could be dipped to if it was within the recoat window, but I haven't tried this. If you want to dip to the existing coatings, hit it with an intercoat clear (clear binder) first and dip to that.

    @MidOhioHydrographics Thanks for that info about intercoat. :)
  • HydroSolutionsHydroSolutions Posts: 64Member ✭✭✭
    Love to hear its working for everyone! We say 45 days as a precaution!
  • Nate97Nate97 Posts: 90Member ✭✭
    Couple examples of dipping after clear, (well, cleared, dipped and finish cleared, and as always it looks as wet as it does
    after you bring it out of the tank, right out the booth!! No wet sanding ever needed, it's that Auto E.R. Signature Series Wet-on-Wet!! Grey scuff pad and sand soap and ready to get dipping. Sidenote there is a benefit to dipping this way, if by chance you do have a bad hit, take your scuff pad and take the film right off leaving the part the exact way its was before that bad dip!! Happened to me on one of the Blackwood trim pieces, did not have to completely start over with the part!! But just as stated in previous comments, don't let the 2K Clear fully cure. Our method is dip next day after it's cleared. Good Luck!


  • WileECoyoteWileECoyote Posts: 5,673Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    Since the window would be assumed closed on that material, I am sure you did rigorous adhesion tests before just assuming it stuck...
  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 8,707Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    Sounds very cool!

    @WileECoyote Since he scuffed the cured clear before dipping, I would think the next layer should bond fine?

    I'm curious to try it on glass with a transparent pattern....
  • onehitwonderonehitwonder Posts: 2,615Member, Business Ninja ✭✭✭✭✭
    You can also use our intercoat over scuffed clear, and dip direct
  • sengland1988sengland1988 Posts: 46Member
    so after reading this thread, am I correct in saying that I can take a old car fender scuff the clear coat and apply a inter coat clear and dip to it then re clear coat? how aggressive of a scuff do I need?
  • WileECoyoteWileECoyote Posts: 5,673Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    edited June 2017
    Nate97 said:

    But just as stated in previous comments, don't let the 2K Clear fully cure. Our method is dip next day after it's cleared. Good Luck!

    I missed this in the post originally. You can't dip to closed clear. He is not dipping to closed clear here in his example. We say 8-12 hours is your window for dipping to 2k clear, but depending on the clear, some have a longer window.

    @WileECoyote Since he scuffed the cured clear before dipping, I would think the next layer should bond fine?

    If the clear had closed (waited too long after it was applied to dip) no, it probably wouldn't be fine. HOWEVER... You are only trying to CHEMICALLY bond the print to the clear at that point, when you clear over the top of this, the clear will MECHANICALLY bond to the clear below (because you scotchbrited the surface) thereby "trapping" the print in between, and having no way to verify how well that would adhere.
    Nate97 said:

    Sidenote there is a benefit to dipping this way, if by chance you do have a bad hit, take your scuff pad and take the film right off leaving the part the exact way its was before that bad dip!!

    As long as you don't scuff through the clear anywhere. Essentially you are just sanding the print out.
    Nate97 said:

    Couple examples of dipping after clear, and as always it looks as wet as it does after you bring it out of the tank, right out the booth!! No wet sanding ever needed, it's that Auto E.R. Signature Series Wet-on-Wet!! Grey scuff pad and sand soap and ready to get dipping.

    Doesn't all clear look perfectly wet right out of the booth? the problem is that Wet Sanding levels out the imperfections that you put in while inconsistently spraying and buildup of errors all along. Scotch Brites scuff the surface, but they don't level anything out. So unless you are a pretty good painter, you aren't going to cover your mistakes.

    so after reading this thread, am I correct in saying that I can take a old car fender scuff the clear coat and apply a inter coat clear and dip to it then re clear coat? how aggressive of a scuff do I need?

    Yes, as long as the "old car fender" has intact coating on it (not flaking off or rusting anywhere) and the coating will hold up to whatever solvents are in the next coat that you are spraying ontop of it, you can scuff and apply innercoat. Typically 500 grit wet sanding is plenty aggressive, or a maroon scotchbrite if the coating is pretty flat to begin with. You just need to give the surface an etch so it can mechanically bite to the surface, because it cannot chemically. Then you can dip to the innercoat, and essentially use the color of the fender below as your base.
  • Nate97Nate97 Posts: 90Member ✭✭
    @WileECoyote when I say right out the booth, that's saying done, dry, the next day, etc....those are cured, signed sealed and delivered examples pictured, besides the Blackwood pieces, that was the only pic I had and it was between coats. As far as painting, that job is in the more than awesome hands of the Doctor at Auto ER my brother from another mother BZ and the only time I see him wet sanding after his final coat of Clear is just to make it even better. He handles my paint and clear while he trains me up to the quality level of anything that rolls out his booth. His skill level is amazing. Check out Auto ER's Facebook page: @AutoEROFPC

  • rcmantjkrcmantjk Posts: 98Member ✭✭
    edited June 2017
    Holy crap, you guys got me all raveled up now!!!! Now I'm thinking about just scuffing the original clear on the fender, clear coating it and then dipping it within the new clear coats curing window. That way if I screw it up (which I'm sure I'll do) I can just scuff off the pattern and redip???? Wouldn't denatured alcohol work too for removing the print from a bad dip instead of re-scuffing??
  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 8,707Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    rcmantjk said:

    Holy crap, you guys got me all raveled up now!!!! Now I'm thinking about just scuffing the original clear on the fender, clear coating it and then dipping it within the new clear coats curing window. That way if I screw it up (which I'm sure I'll do) I can just scuff off the pattern and redip???? Wouldn't denatured alcohol work too for removing the print from a bad dip instead of re-scuffing??

    Yep. All sounds logical. I would possibly do some tests first just to confirm, but it sounds good from this side of the planet.
  • rcmantjkrcmantjk Posts: 98Member ✭✭
    @MidOhioHydrographics----- Wouldn't or couldn't denatured alcohol work too for removing the print from a bad dip instead of re-scuffing??
  • WileECoyoteWileECoyote Posts: 5,673Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    @rcmantjk yes it works, but its more aggressive than you need, and runs the risk of softening the clear below. Which causes you to have to wait longer to redip.
  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 8,707Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    Yep. Or isopropyl. May leave some staining.
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