Flame Treating Learning Curve. — K2Forums.com

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Flame Treating Learning Curve.

Out of curiosity, how many things did you pro's warp learning this process?

My Rule #1 don't learn on your car's fuse box cover......and yes I did. Sharp as a bowling ball and bright as the edge of town at times.

So now I'm practicing on .29 switch plates.

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Comments

  • K2ConceptsK2Concepts Posts: 12,946Administrator El Jefe
    Practice on a hard hat from Home Depot...cheap ones are only $6 and there is plenty of surface to practice on...I think the switch plates are ABS or Styrene...
  • NotSoFastNotSoFast Posts: 3,161Member, Moderator El Moderator
    Yeah. Light switch covers don't usually need flame treating, so you have no comparison point to see if you are doing it right.

    Keep your torch moving constantly. The part should barely be warm, certainly not hot enough to warp.
  • loochlooch Posts: 1,634Member ✭✭✭✭✭
    Get the flame spreader attachment if your worried about burning it
  • TrayersSlayersTrayersSlayers Posts: 229Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 2017
    Open flame in a paint shop? Does no one understand that almost everything you use is highly flammable? This topic keeps showing up like a bad case of herpies. Its not a necessary step. Completely out dated. If you use PPG sx103, then prep, ppg103, prime, paint. Or ppg sx103, then prep, ppg 103, Aqualac or lchp directly you will have no problems. At all. 
  • TrayersSlayersTrayersSlayers Posts: 229Member ✭✭✭
  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 9,081Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    I'm seeing more and more of these systems pop up and some very repected names recommend it, like Marc Devaud who I trust completely. The only questions that I have would be is it cost effective? Some of them are extremely expensive and I have yet to see a side by side Adhesion comparison of flame treatment vs these systems. And by comparison I mean a good cross hatch test on polyethylene. I'm just curious. I don't flame treat any of the polypropylene parts we run and have fantastic Adhesion using just AP.
  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 9,081Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    And if the part is exposed to heat at a later date, will the oils begin to sweat out and cause issues?
  • NotSoFastNotSoFast Posts: 3,161Member, Moderator El Moderator

    Open flame in a paint shop? Does no one understand that almost everything you use is highly flammable? This topic keeps showing up like a bad case of herpies. Its not a necessary step. Completely out dated. If you use PPG sx103, then prep, ppg103, prime, paint. Or ppg sx103, then prep, ppg 103, Aqualac or lchp directly you will have no problems. At all. 

    As long as you are not flame treating inside your booth while painting, you'll be fine. I assume you shop has lights, electrical sockets, maybe a water fountain, computers... basically anything using electricity. You'd be choking if the materials in the shop air were dense enough for ignition. Keep your containers closed when not pouring from them, which I assume you are already doing.

    I used to work in a shop where we had a paint booth for fire trucks. In the same shop, we were welding, using cutting torches, and using electric tools without any explosions.
  • TroubleTrouble Posts: 295Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 2017
    I have done some testing with these all these new products except plastic magic and for best adhesion I found sand blasting, PPG DX103 (Now called SX103) and Pliogrip TPO adhesion promoter and epoxy works for me. I don't like the way the Pliogrip sprays and only comes in aerosol so I am testing another TPO primerbyt that stuff reall grabs onto the HDPE. My paint supplier sells the DX 103 in a spray can for around $11.00 so you can test this method without breaking the bank.

    As mentioned these new systems are expensive. I find the value comes in time saving. I can spray a lot quicker than flame treating. If you do not do a lot of HDPE I would say flame on, the Torch is a cheaper way to go. If you do a lot of HDPE these system are worth looking into.

    I have been flaming for over 4 years almost daily never caught the place on fire.
    Post edited by Trouble on
  • WileECoyoteWileECoyote Posts: 6,022Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    Yeah, previous job had dehydrating ovens, heat guns, warming pans, and all sorts of possible ignition sources. 20' from an ignition source is the only rule FOR STORAGE, everything else is common sense. Your average garage dipper turning out $100 a month in Yeti cups is not going to have the capitol to stick into these systems. And for your average dipper, breaking out the torch once a week isn't that much of a time savings. I would love to get a hold of a few of these and try them to see what they could do, perfect demos for training.
  • Fejery4491Fejery4491 Posts: 131Member ✭✭✭
    @WileECoyote we're going to be getting a couple different samples here. Sean at Big Brain has something, we're getting some of the Prep all paste from Kansas, and some other stuff that namochem offers. We'll be testing them against the cover you did adhesion test on at the remote.

    PS did I hear a rumor that you're working over at Douglas this week?
  • WileECoyoteWileECoyote Posts: 6,022Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    @Fejery4491 That's great news, more info is not going to hurt anyone. My only advice is take LOTS of pics, and try as many combinations as you can think of, process the information later, and determine what the best path is once you see it infront of you.

    Of course we understand that you may not want to share ALL of the information that you find, but whatever you CAN share is always appreciated.

    As far as I know, I am back at my 9-5 job here in Wisconsin, but I am usually the last to know what my plans are... What have you heard?
  • K2ConceptsK2Concepts Posts: 12,946Administrator El Jefe
    edited May 2017
    The other thing to remember is the VOC limits of the municipality's some of us fall into...we cannot simply buy some of these products and/or if we get caught with themi in our shop? Hefty fine..

    Open flame in a paint shop? Does no one understand that almost everything you use is highly flammable? This topic keeps showing up like a bad case of herpies. Its not a necessary step. Completely out dated. If you use PPG sx103, then prep, ppg103, prime, paint. Or ppg sx103, then prep, ppg 103, Aqualac or lchp directly you will have no problems. At all. 

    No...I don't understand how a open flame is any more dangerous in a body shop than a grinder, welder, spot welder, cutting torch, any battery or cord powered tool with brushes or even an employee smoking a cigarette...you guys act like a open source flame is a completely new concept....and unless you have a shop that can completely eliminate ALL the above? Your point is moot...
    Post edited by K2Concepts on
  • onehitwonderonehitwonder Posts: 2,679Member, Business Ninja ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dang, when I used to smoke, I'd actually light and smoke in the booth - you need a HUGE solvent/air ratio to get ignition
  • WileECoyoteWileECoyote Posts: 6,022Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    Yeah, if it was actually to the saturation point where it could ignite you wouldn't be able to breathe.
  • Fejery4491Fejery4491 Posts: 131Member ✭✭✭
    @WileECoyote I plan to post any results I find. Nothing I find is going to be anything that someone else couldn't replicate with a little legwork and I'm all about helping where I can.

    As far as thinking you were working up here? Someone in passing said "that guy over there is working up in your neck of the woods next week" and motioned in your direction. Probably could've been talking about Jason, or probably a number of other people standing near you. My attention was elsewhere at the moment, so I probably just misunderstood.
  • TrayersSlayersTrayersSlayers Posts: 229Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 2017
    Come on guys. Do what you do with flame treating. I have personally seen guys cleaning there paint guns with solvents. Using airguns to blow them dry, highspeed dry air rushing across cause a static spark and igniting the cleaning solvents. Just because you have never had it happen to you dont mean it cant or wont. We have had 2 body shops in our area go up in flames lately one because of a Chevy with faulty wiring the other was a spontaneous rag bucket ignition. Point is why risk it when there is viable alternatives out there. You joke around about it but I have seen personal and property damage due to open flame in paint shops. Just ain't worth it to me. Doesn't mean that I have any less respect for you guys. Not at all your collective experience far surpasses any other help venue out there. Just like I said over on Bigbrains/ lowcountry facebook help page. To all there own on this subject. Im out I will never try to help anyone else out on this subject ever again. Im out my friends. 
    Post edited by TrayersSlayers on
  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 9,081Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    Hey easy, brother! @TrayersSlayers I am extremely curious about the products and very much value your opinion on the alternatives to flame treatment. I'm very interested in what may be a more cost effective alternative for production work. Have you done any testing or comparison? Please post up your results if you have.

    The fire issues you mentioned are different than simply having an open flame across the shop. My dads machine shop just had a fire also and I'm very, very cautious now wherever I can be. If I'm understanding correctly, The issues w the faulty wiring would be a spark on the vehicle being painted which got blasted w atomized solvent nearly directly and solvent rags are always a risk that must be taken seriously. They were just talking about flame treatment in a different area of the shop.
  • NotSoFastNotSoFast Posts: 3,161Member, Moderator El Moderator

    Come on guys. Do what you do with flame treating. I have personally seen guys cleaning there paint guns with solvents. Using airguns to blow them dry, highspeed dry air rushing across cause a static spark and igniting the cleaning solvents. Just because you have never had it happen to you dont mean it cant or wont. We have had 2 body shops in our area go up in flames lately one because of a Chevy with faulty wiring the other was a spontaneous rag bucket ignition. Point is why risk it when there is viable alternatives out there. You joke around about it but I have seen personal and property damage due to open flame in paint shops. Just ain't worth it to me. Doesn't mean that I have any less respect for you guys. Not at all your collective experience far surpasses any other help venue out there. Just like I said over on Bigbrains/ lowcountry facebook help page. To all there own on this subject. Im out I will never try to help anyone else out on this subject ever again. Im out my friends. 

    The thing about this is that if you are flame treating near someone who is using an open container of solvents, you are doing it very wrong. I mean we all have containers of gas for the lawn mower in the garage, but it never explodes when we pull the car inside...or turn on the lights...or light up a cigarette. Just be smart about it. Don't use a flame around OPEN containers of solvents or in the paint booth while someone is spraying.
  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 9,081Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    edited May 2017
    And I just read this about a shop in downtown Mansfield...
    https://www.hotrod.studio/single-post/2017/05/22/Hot-Rod-Studio-Up-in-Smoke

    These are the guys that gained some serious fame for their Color Change Battle Ready Motorcycle:
    https://www.facebook.com/thehotrodstudio/videos/1091834380876353/

    https://www.hotrod.studio/videos


    It burned last Wednesday and the fire department said it was due to spontaneous combustion in a trash can. Keep this in mind! Solvent soaked rags need to be placed into a proper container! My insurance guy actually required that I have fireproof trash cans. I purchased these and I'm very glad I did:

    https://www.theparkcatalog.com/55-gal-heavy-duty-cease-fire-receptacle-gray-with-painted-red-steel-head

    https://www.theparkcatalog.com/21-gal-oily-waste-can-step-on-red


  • WileECoyoteWileECoyote Posts: 6,022Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator

    Open flame in a paint shop? Does no one understand that almost everything you use is highly flammable? This topic keeps showing up like a bad case of herpies. Its not a necessary step. Completely out dated. If you use PPG sx103, then prep, ppg103, prime, paint. Or ppg sx103, then prep, ppg 103, Aqualac or lchp directly you will have no problems. At all. 

    OK, hold on here chief. You started your post with a sort of backhand comment and an attempt at humor, and then stated "Its not a necessary step. Completely out dated". We responded with facts to the contrary, it IS necessary for 90% of the guys out there for the reasons listed above, and it IS NOT outdated if it works and is cost effective. So don't turn yourself into a martyr for your cause when we simply stated facts to the contrary.

    And when I see things like "you will have no problems. At all." it rubs me the wrong way. Because after 19 years in paint ANYTHING can go wrong for ANY reason, on ANY day... to make a statement like that with NO evidence to back it up, and no proof of testing is irresponsible, and speaks to your own inexperience.

    No one is here to make anyone look stupid, but when there is information out there that can be problematic when used incorrectly, we are here to prevent that. If you are calling off your assistance on this topic, so be it. But understand the people that contribute to this forum do so with alot of knowledge, and seeing guys shooting from the hip is something we have all done... and it doesn't work. The information on these pages is one of the largest forums that I know of on the topic that is still active, there is a reason for that.
  • MidOhioHydrographicsMidOhioHydrographics Posts: 9,081Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    edited May 2017
    There is a concern w/ guys using solvent based materials in small shops or attached garages so there really isn't "another area of the shop." But to play from both sides, they shouldn't really be shooting any solvent based materials in them anyway, and there are plenty of threads already stating why. This is a dangerous process. Nobody can stop anybody from catching their house on fire for a number of reasons. Plenty of guys will weld in their garage with gas cans within sight.

    Just be smart about it! All of it! It's a dangerous process!
  • K2ConceptsK2Concepts Posts: 12,946Administrator El Jefe

    Come on guys. Do what you do with flame treating. I have personally seen guys cleaning there paint guns with solvents. Using airguns to blow them dry, highspeed dry air rushing across cause a static spark and igniting the cleaning solvents. Just because you have never had it happen to you dont mean it cant or wont. We have had 2 body shops in our area go up in flames lately one because of a Chevy with faulty wiring the other was a spontaneous rag bucket ignition. Point is why risk it when there is viable alternatives out there. You joke around about it but I have seen personal and property damage due to open flame in paint shops. Just ain't worth it to me. Doesn't mean that I have any less respect for you guys. Not at all your collective experience far surpasses any other help venue out there. Just like I said over on Bigbrains/ lowcountry facebook help page. To all there own on this subject. Im out I will never try to help anyone else out on this subject ever again. Im out my friends. 

    @TrayersSlayers Yes, I agree that there are alternatives out there...IF your business can buy them legally and use them safely...doesn't matter how good the products are if we can't get them...and some of us cannot...therefore the flame treatment is the only option for some of us...or the fastest option...

    As for the safety factor? Yes common sense will go a long way...hopefully someone uses it...
  • K2ConceptsK2Concepts Posts: 12,946Administrator El Jefe
    @WileECoyote You are truly at one with your inner a-hole today...chill brother...it's only Tuesday...
  • WileECoyoteWileECoyote Posts: 6,022Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    Sorry, I actually didn't think that version was that bad, I am not trying to offend @TrayersSlayers, just dislike the idea that anyone is being beaten into submission.
  • K2ConceptsK2Concepts Posts: 12,946Administrator El Jefe

    Sorry, I actually didn't think that version was that bad, I am not trying to offend @TrayersSlayers, just dislike the idea that anyone is being beaten into submission.

    The you ought to be hating yourself right about n...hey wait...right about ever since I have known you... :rofl:
  • WileECoyoteWileECoyote Posts: 6,022Member, Moderator, Business Ninja El Moderator
    Yeah... I get that alot.
  • NotSoFastNotSoFast Posts: 3,161Member, Moderator El Moderator
    One more point on the subject... No one says you have to do the flame treating in an area where there are flammable materials. Do it in the parking lot or your back yard by the bbq pit.
  • smedlinsmedlin Posts: 1,614Member, Business Ninja ✭✭✭✭
    NotSoFast said:

    One more point on the subject... No one says you have to do the flame treating in an area where there are flammable materials. Do it in the parking lot or your back yard by the bbq pit.

    +1

    this is what I do. My shop is in my garage, with NO open flames anywhere.

    I do my flame treating on the back porch.
  • IceMasterIceMaster Posts: 1,310Member ✭✭✭✭
    I've gone back to using an AP because I've never really had good luck with the flame treating. I'm sure it's just something I'm doing wrong but I just find the AP easier, for me, in the long run. I've certainly had better adhesion since going to an AP
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